Author Topic: Rattling 1911's  (Read 22192 times)

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Rattling 1911's
« on: February 27, 2013, 10:51:41 AM »
When I bought a stainless R1, it rattled like a GI beater right out of the box. I swapped it off on another blued R1, which like the first one I bought, has a tight-slide-to frame fit. Haven't put a round through the new gun as yet.

I posted this on the Canadian GunNutz forum and started a big storm as the 'experts' expounded on the necessity for 1911's to have a loose slide-to-frame fit for functional reliability and how this was not detrimental to accuracy, etc.!

I asked then why it was that custom, high end 1911's had  tight slide-to-frame fit and yet were highly functional, used by the best competitors and people whose lives depend on their guns? No answer, but they went on that it was quite acceptable on production guns, blah, blah, blah, .....

I would rather have a gun that came with a disclaimer that said - "For best function and reliability, it may be necessary to do some minor fitting and adjusting due to manufacturing tolerances."

One way or the other, the customer has to pay. In this day of cast frames and CNC machining, I EXPECT a gun to closely fitted to a reasonable standard. A NIB 1911 that rattles is not acceptable.

The guns that are most often reported as 'rattlers' are the Ruger SR1911 (sorry guys) and this is borne out by the number of NIB SR1911's that are posted for sale on the GunNutz site. Other production 1911's are not exempt, and quality control seems to be a hit or miss (pardon the pun) proposition.

I seem to have lucked out with my blued Remington R1's, but I know of one in stainless that is a rattler ......
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Offline RickB

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 11:03:21 AM »
I must be lucky then because both of my Springfields are solid and rattle free. 
Ride Safe and Shoot Straight.
Rick.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 01:53:53 PM »
And do they have cast or forged frames?

If cast, then it shows it is possible for makers to achieve a close slide-to-frame fit with that manufacturing method.

It remains to be seen how guns with cast frames last, but my R1s will definitely outlast me .... ;>)
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I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #3 on: Today at 02:24:30 AM »

Offline pistol1911

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 10:05:21 AM »
The most inaccurate 45's  I ever handled were rattlers issued to reserve units which we had to qualify when I was Commander of a marksmanship Training Unit. They were not as dependable as the match grade pistols  the pistol team used. My carry 1911 was built by an AMU armorer. The barrel fit is unbelievable and slide is solid to the frame. I have put over 2000 rounds of hardball thru this pistol with only one failure to feed. Loose does not mean reliable in my opinion.

Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 11:25:12 AM »
You guys may not know this, but you've "discovered" one of the classic debates in the 1911 world:  "Loose" vs. "Tight".

This issue is debated on the 1911 boards like "Ford" vs. "Chevy".

So far, no one expert has the ultimate answer for this issue.
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Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 11:52:57 AM »
What's a "Ford"/"Chevy"? I drive Toyotas .... ;>)  The bottom line - If a gun operates reliably, it's OK.

The malfunctions attributed to GI 1911s can probably be traced to poor magazines, worn extractors, short ejectors, poor grip and most likely - the ejection port.

When I first got into IPSC back in the Cooper era, one of the first mods was to lower and flare the ejection port on GI and commercial Series '70s Colts. Reliability was much improved thereafter. New mags helped. We also replaced the stock ejectors, a practice discouraged by many due to the possibility of causing an AD.
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Offline MJN77

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 05:44:11 PM »
FWIW, I have two 1911A1 'clones". One is a seventeen year old Norinco and the other is a two year old Auto Ordnance. The Norinco rattles like crazy, the AO does not. At 25 yards I can get 2 1/2 -3 inch groups from either of them. So as PJ said,
Quote
The bottom line - If a gun operates reliably, it's OK.
Least that's how I see it.

Offline RickB

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 10:00:57 PM »
PJ. From what I understand my 1911s have forged frames. Springfield gets their frames from Imbril (sp?) from what I've read and they forge their frames. I love my 1911s.
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2013, 07:57:22 PM »
A Marine armourer once told me "Sights are on the slide, the barrel locks to the slide, how the barrel locks to the slide determines where it shoots, the rest is just what ya like."
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 10:46:15 AM »
Yeah, the AMU armorer's feel the same way - slide-to-frame fit is the variable that LEAST affects accuracy.

I spent the weekend re-auditing the Black Badge course, mandatory after an absence of a couple of years. My wife will be on a later course as she wants to add another shooting sport to her life. I went into CAS as an IPSC burnout and it didn't take long for the IPSC mentality to follow with Cowboy 'race guns', short stroke lever actions, etc. C'est la vie .....

But, the major difference was in general gun handling skills. Although some of the rules can be anal, the BB course is arguably the best safe gun handling course out there available to anyone. Most of the CAS folks I know could benefit from it. And so could the police!
I have no idea why there isn't a CAS equivalent. Our club has a mandatory "holster qualification" course that just stresses a safe draw, reholstering, muzzle direction while on the move, etc. ALL people wearing a gun on the range must have this. We've had too many incidents of improper and downright dangerous gun handling, often from police recreational shooting. What they do on official training when they rent the range is up to them.

The guns I saw on the Black Badge course ranged from the top end, optically sighted, compensated 'race guns' down to my stock Remington R1. I also had my tricked out Series '70 Gold Cup, but I was trying to make a point. My long years of experience in IPSC more than made up for it's lack of sophistication and I was the only 'student' not to incur penalties for misses or hits on 'no shoots'.
The gun didn't malfunction once.

This could not be said of the 'big boys' who incurred a few while showing us how it's done with high end guns and gear. Among the students, the guns that gibbled were a Ruger SR1911, a Norc, a Ruger P-95 and a couple of European 9mms. Some of these were 'shooter induced' malfunctions, others related to ammo. Chalk it up to lack of experience.

I wore my Davis holster the first day for the pure nostalgia of it, the only leather rig there. This could be worn 'concealed' and I often did when that was a requirement in IPSC. The second day, I used a new Blade-Tech, which while looking oh, so kool, was no faster on the draw and looks downright silly, the gun butt jutting out making it vulnerable to hitting door jambs, furniture, etc.

I wore both around the house for a week before the course, and there is no doubt as to which holster is truly 'practical'. I forgot I was wearing the Davis, but was always conscious of wearing the Blade-Tech.

Now, I have to work on getting the IPSC guys to cross over and try 'Wild Bunch'. The head honcho is interested as he realizes that some cross over will benefit both disciplines and increase participation.
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Offline pistol1911

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 12:35:08 PM »
When I wrote about reserve unit 45's being rattlers, I wasn't just referring to slide to frame fit. The barrel to slide fit left a lot to be desired. I agree the most important thing is consistent barrel lockup. Some of their pistol had rattling barrels.

Offline Roscoe Coles

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 09:02:16 PM »
The proof is in the pudding...how well does it shoot?  And more to the point, how well does it have to?  I have had a lot of Colts and other 1911s and tight is nice but can be overdone.  Unless you are shooting bullseye, reliable is more important than dead accurate.  In WB, absolute accuracy is not that big a deal.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 09:51:05 PM »
Agreed, but I still want my 1911's NOT to rattle, thank you! It isn't a question of functional reliability so much as esthetics. When I start crawling through the mud again, I'll look for s gun that rattles. But, I don't recall ANY of our Inglis-Browning Hi-Powers that rattled, and they were all WWII era guns.

My wife were at our weekly IPSC practice today and NOBODY'S pistol rattled, 1911's or otherwise. My wife's SR9 sure doesn't rattle. They all worked reliably.
Some of our guys shoot full-house IPSC "Race Gun/Star Wars' optically sighted pistols. All of them are tightly fitted and guess what - they work, and rather well at that.
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I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Ten Wolves Fiveshooter

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2013, 12:18:56 PM »
PJ. From what I understand my 1911s have forged frames. Springfield gets their frames from Imbril (sp?) from what I've read and they forge their frames. I love my 1911s.

+1, My Springfield 1911 is solid with tight tolerances, rattle free and accurate as all get out, I spent a little more for the Springfield, but I'm very happy with it, and it has a life time warranty , the loose tolerances on the old WW2 1911"s was so the gun would function in dirty or even muddy conditions, the first 1911 I shoot was from that time, and I couldn't hit a barn with it, but I was told it was for close quarters fighting, and also the loose fitting was for the conditions they might be fighting in, which makes sense, but for me I like my guns to hit what I aim at, and I'm not fighting in the mud  anyway, so loose is not needed.
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Offline cal44walker

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 05:20:36 PM »
The forged vs cast scenario is'nt really a factor in the slide to frame fit on these guns. The final pass with the milling machine and any lapping to the rails done after that will determine the fit tolerances. A cast part is a practical but less desirable solution than a forged one due to the mixed grain structure and reduced density of the cast item along with any casting flaws it might have. It should be possible to achieve an equal fit on most 1911's. How long that lasts is a mostly a matter of metal quality and heat treatment. From a pure mechanical viewpoint, I'd bet all my money on a tight gun vs a loose one in the accuracy department and as tight guns have been proven to be reliable, reliablity should not be a factor unless you're dragging it through the mud and sand without cleaning it. In that case you want an AK47/74 anyway..... ;D

cal44walker

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2013, 05:32:49 PM »
Time will tell how the cast frame 1911's stand up compared to the forged frames. So far I'm aware of one catastrophic 1911 failure, and it was on the Springfield slide, not the frame. I don't know the circumstances surrounding the failure.

A 'smith once told me that there was a limit to how much a gun could or would wear within it's design limits. Once it got to the max, that was it, and it could be expected NOT to wear past that point, which is why a lot of old, worn guns function so well.

Replacing worn parts removes some of that wear, but the new parts would eventually wear in to the same tolerance. He wasn't referring to slide tightening, but replaceable parts. Tightening the slide-to-frame fit creates a whole new dynamic in a 1911.
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Offline cal44walker

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2013, 02:00:15 PM »
I'd take that 'smith's advice with a heavy dose of salt  ;) I see examples in the shop everyday of well made guns so mechanically worn out and abused that we scrap them for the scavengable parts and junk the rest. I would actually say the opposite for most moving parts like sears, disconnectors and solid frame parts like the cross bolt on shotguns. Once you go throught the outer hard surface of heat treated parts then the wear really accelerates. I like the idea of a gun that never really wears out from a users view, but then I would'nt have much of a job left  ;D. I'd actually be interested in finding out which companies use cast frames and which use forged for the 1911's so I could keep an eye out for issues in both. We are the STI dealer for our country and I hav'nt seen any issues yet with these fine pistols. We had a Ruger 1911 in the other day which I assume is cast seeing as everything else they make is too......

cal44walker

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2013, 08:53:05 PM »
The Ruger SR1911 has a cast frame and so does the Remington R1, made for them by ERPC. Ruger has been making pistols with cast frames for a long time and I've never heard of a failure. Caspian is another with a cast frame, I believe.

Since the frames are cast, I presume that the slides are as well.

Compared to other designs, the 1911 seems to subject it's parts to low stress, which accounts for it's longevity in service. Browning seems to have intuitively known which parts to make of a certain dimension. I once read that he would have a machinist measure the distance between two fingers, having said - "I think this part needs to be about this thick."; or words to that effect.

Considering he was right on the grip angle, this could be more than folk lore.
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Offline cal44walker

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2013, 10:41:52 AM »
No doubt about John Brownings genius. That guy was so far ahead in all types of weapon design. The 1911 has lasted that long in service due to exactly that quality he had. You just have to look at the competition at the time (Savage, Luger ect) to see how fragile those designs were in comparison during the torture tests they were put through. Can you imagine a P08 Luger consistanly lasting so long in service with all those small, hard to produce parts? Although it's design is a little long in the tooth today (but still highly practical) the Colt was nothing short of a revalation 100 years ago. I've totally stripped many of the guns Browning designed and they all have that trademark of simplicity and functional duality in them. They say that its simple to make something complicated, and complicated to make something simple. He sure achieved the latter, and he did it first.

cal44walker.

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Rattling 1911's
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2013, 02:31:24 PM »
What about the Mauser C96 'Broomhandle' for simplicity and ingenuity of design? No pins, no screws.

Just lousy ergonomics.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

 

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