Tell me about external hammered shotguns

[Bugscuffle]

I do not now own an external hammer shotgun and I am wondering about them. Here is my thought process. With external hammered shotguns you have to take the time to cock the hammers before firing. With internal hammerred shotguns you have to make the additional effort to open the action because this is what cocks the hammers. With my Stevens 311 I have to drop the shotgun down (not all the way, but some anyway to get the leverage on the barrels to open the action/cock the hammers. With an external hammer shotgun I believe that I could keep the gun up on my shoulder throughout the reloloading process ( assuming that the action will just fall open when I hit the lever. Will the time that I save opening and reshouldering the external hammered shotgun make up for the time that I spend cocking the hammers with my thumb?

And besides the external hammer shotguns look so coooool!

[Abilene]

How much do you want to practice?
Here's some world records and other speedsters:

External Hammers:
Badlands Bud, 3.21 Seconds : http://www.jspublications.net/records/BudSxSMule321.wmv
T Bone Dooley 3.58 seconds : http://www.spencerhoglund.com/files/Cap0010.MPG
UT Hill 3.94 seconds : http://www.jspublications.net/records/UTHillHammered394.wmv

Internal hammers:
Savage Sam, 2.64 : http://www.jspublications.net/records/SxSSavageSam2.64.wmv
Payden Kash, 2.71 : http://www.jspublications.net/records/SxSPaydenKash271.wmv
Badlands Bud, 3.04 : http://www.jspublications.net/records/Buddouble304.wmv

As you can see, for the fastest guys a hammerless is slightly faster.  For the rest of us, well...
I am just about as fast (or slow) with hammered as hammerless, but I don't practice and I do take it off the shoulder.

And remember, the hammers can be pre-cocked so the extra time spent cocking the hammers is only for subsequent shots.

(more fast guy videos here: http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html )

[Pettifogger]

First, if you want to evaluate an inside hammer's speed you have picked one of the worse CAS shotguns.  The 311 series was used years ago, but has fallen out of favor because the basic action tends to close when you try to reload and, if I recall, there is a solid rib between the chambers.  It is simply not a fast double.  You will also notice in the videos of the fast outside hammer double shooters NONE of them keep the gun on their shoulder.  What makes speed with a double is how fast you can shuck the fired shells and get the new ones in the chamber.  Not whether it is on your shoulder or not.

[Advertising]

[Shotgun Franklin]

There is a kit available to 'fix' the 311 so that it will stay open, I have read of it but not used it. I use my 311 on game and use a different SXS for CAS.

[Pettifogger]

The "kit" does not totally solve the problem.  That is why you see so few of them in competition anymore.

[Bugscuffle]

Thanks for the information on the hammerless shotguns. This is NOT what I expected, but now at least,  I don't see a need for another shotgun and that will make my wife happy. When I first got my 311 I did the mods to it. I shortened the cocking plunger so that the gun opened up completely and replaced the hammer springs with the Wolf low tension spring set. I did not, as some people do, disable the automatic safety. I have not ever had a problem getting the safety "off" when shooting and  do believe that it is a worthwhile safety item. As far as having the hammers precocked goes, I feel that this is a bit dodgey and probably unsafe. I don't think that this is something that i would want to do.

[Pettifogger]

Thanks for the information on the hammerless shotguns. This is NOT what I expected, but now at least,  I don't see a need for another shotgun and that will make my wife happy. When I first got my 311 I did the mods to it. I shortened the cocking plunger so that the gun opened up completely and replaced the hammer springs with the Wolf low tension spring set. I did not, as some people do, disable the automatic safety. I have not ever had a problem getting the safety "off" when shooting and  do believe that it is a worthwhile safety item. As far as having the hammers precocked goes, I feel that this is a bit dodgey and probably unsafe. I don't think that this is something that i would want to do.

If you are shooting an inside hammer gun you are already doing this as shotguns are staged "open" and empty.  If your inside hammer shotgun is open, the hammers are cocked.  The only difference with an outside hammer shotgun is that you can see the hammers.  Absolutely not a problem.

[Bugscuffle]

If you are shooting an inside hammer gun you are already doing this as shotguns are staged "open" and empty.  If your outside hammer shotgun is open, the hammers are cocked.  The only difference with an outside hammer shotgun is that you can see the hammers.  Absolutely not a problem.

You are right up to a point Pard, but you are forgetting that MY shotgun goes on "safe" as soon as I push the top snap over to open the action. The external hammered shotgun, with the hammers cocked has no safety and IS capable of tripping the hammers with the action partly or completely open. NOT SAFE! There IS a difference.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Bugsie;  Don't overthink this.  Nothing is ever entirely foolproof but I've never seen a shotgun go off on closing.  In all CAS situations, and most other shooting games, the shotgun is pointed downrange at the time of closing.

[Bugscuffle]

Bugsie;  Don't overthink this.  Nothing is ever entirely foolproof but I've never seen a shotgun go off on closing.  In all CAS situations, and most other shooting games, the shotgun is pointed downrange at the time of closing.

I've never seen a shotgun explode on firing, but don't you think that we should make sure that people do not use smokeless loads in damascus barreled shotguns? Just because you have never seen a slamfire, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do everything necessary to avoid one.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Bugsie;  Apples & oranges.  Foreseeability is important to your conversation.  The Damascus barrel example has a fairly high degree of danger of damage, and possibly injury.  The likelyhood of a gun going off on closing is almost never heard of.  As I stated, don't overthink this.

[Bugscuffle]

Bugsie;  Apples & oranges.  Foreseeability is important to your conversation.  The Damascus barrel example has a fairly high degree of danger of damage, and possibly injury.  The likelyhood of a gun going off on closing is almost never heard of.  As I stated, don't overthink this.

Then why do we have the expression "slamfire".

[Pettifogger]

Then why do we have the expression "slamfire".

What you are talking about is NOT a slamfire.  Winchester 97's and Colt Lightnings slamfire.  The original discussion was about whether converting a shotgun safety to operate manually is unsafe.  NO!  Do you have a safety on your rifle than turns on every time you lever it or a revolver that has a safety that engages every time you cock it?  A double barrel shotgun can conceivably fire if the firing pins are stuck forward and you shut the barrels briskly.  No safety is going to fix that particular problem as a firing pin that is stuck forward is either a maintenance issue or a mechanical break. 

[Red Cent]

I have a Model 1897 pump, a Model 12 pump, and a 93/97 IAC pump. You can stuff 5 rounds in them, pin the trigger back and start cycling the action fast. All the rounds will "slamfire".  And they will fire as fast as you can work the action.
This does not apply to  S X S.

Drop a couple of live rounds in a S X S. Start closing the action. Remember the firing pins will protude momentarily maybe an 1/8th of an inch when the trigger is pulled. If the S X S fires and the action is not locked, nothing exciting will happen.  Sometime back a few cowboys removed the locking mechanism and simply held them closed when fired. Ain't dangerous at all. Again, if it WILL fire, the thing is so close to closed, nothing will happen. Being so colse to closed, the hull will maiintain and the force of the shell firing will b no different if you hd the action closed.

Co-incidentally, I happen to be working on a Stevens 311. I have chopped the barrels to 20", lengthened the forcing cones, lightened the hammer springs,andpolished some stuff. I removed the small rib that goes over the locking mechanism. I removed a bunch of metal from the locking lug. Now it is a slim bar with a rounded point. Chamfered the barrels and polished the heck out of the chambers.



As far as the action staying open, I believe I may have found  cure. BTW, the "fix" for the Stevens is not for all the Stevens. The gun cocks on opening. The point where it is cocked is about 2/3 of the way of opening the barrels. I believe I can get the action to cock at the last inch or to of opening thereby relieving tension and it will stay open. I'll report back.

[Lumpy Grits]

You are right up to a point Pard, but you are forgetting that MY shotgun goes on "safe" as soon as I push the top snap over to open the action. The external hammered shotgun, with the hammers cocked has no safety and IS capable of tripping the hammers with the action partly or completely open. NOT SAFE! There IS a difference.

Very few internal hammer SXS's have auto safeties.  If the safety is on or not. When you open the action, the hammers are cocked. That is fact.
I have seen many internal hammered SXS fire when the action is closed hard.
The safety you speak of only blocks the trigger. It will not stop the sear from slipping off a worn hammer notch when then action is closed hard & fast.
In SASS, both external and internal hammered SXS, SGs are staged, open and EMPTY. You may cock the hammers on an external hammered SG when staged open and empty. Not one thing unsafe about doing so.
There is no requirement in SASS for any so called auto "safety".
Slam fire refers to a sliding bolt type weapon.
LG

[Bugscuffle]

I guess that I'm just a worry wart. We can go baack and forth on this all month long and I don't really care to go on any longer. We can all come up with reasons and scenarios where the gun wiil or casnnot fire, but where I am coming from is at EVERY match that I have been to and I have been to more than a few, I see people engage their shotgun, in other words pick it up, I see that they go straight for the grip and their fingers go into the trigger guard, ready to pull the trigger even before they get the thing loaded. I have every reason to believe that a light trigger or a heavy finger could cause an accidental firing. Next match that you attend, look to see if any of the shooters place their fingers inside the trigger guard while closing the acation.

[John Smith]

OK Bugs, I've been to a whole lot more matches than you have, can't remember a ND with a shotgun.  How many have you seen?  BTW have you shot a match yet?

[Cliff Fendley]

I guess that I'm just a worry wart. We can go baack and forth on this all month long and I don't really care to go on any longer. We can all come up with reasons and scenarios where the gun wiil or casnnot fire, but where I am coming from is at EVERY match that I have been to and I have been to more than a few, I see people engage their shotgun, in other words pick it up, I see that they go straight for the grip and their fingers go into the trigger guard, ready to pull the trigger even before they get the thing loaded. I have every reason to believe that a light trigger or a heavy finger could cause an accidental firing. Next match that you attend, look to see if any of the shooters place their fingers inside the trigger guard while closing the acation.

Are you going to shoots and actually shooting or just sitting around coaching?

I loved when I was running the truck pulling circuits and had spectators coming into the pit area telling drivers and mechanics how to do everything from carb/timing adjustments to air pressure.

All I can say is just get out there and try it for yourself, different things work for different people in every sport.

One thing I can say with most any sport. Don't question good competitors way of doing things but rather study and figure out why they do it that way and how they do it successfully. And if you see EVERYONE doing something the same way you can pretty much count on there being a pretty good reason for it.

Your worrying to much, sure you want to be safe about it but just get out there and have fun. If you have a safety concern ask the RO if your OK doing it that way.

[Camille Eonich]

WE have redundant safety nets for a reason.

[Lumpy Grits]

The ONLY safety device that works is your BRAIN.
That is why I became an RO2 and what the TO does watch'n the shooter.
BS, after you shoot your first match you will see it's a non-issue.
Don't try to fix what ain't broke.......
LG