Author Topic: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition  (Read 24437 times)

Offline Jubal Starbuck

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Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« on: November 16, 2012, 01:20:50 PM »
     I was talking with an older friend and neighbor of mine a couple of days ago and he told me he had had an uncle in the cavalry during Pershing's Punitive Expedition into Mexico.  When asked about weapons his uncle told him they carried their Springfield 1903's slung on their backs and hoped they didn't fall from their mounts. No scabbards were provided.  He said they each had two 1911's, one holstered on the right and one on the left, butt forward.  Two right handed holsters were issued. The magazines they had were equipped with lanyard rings in the bottom
and extra magazines were carried on a thong or strap hung around their necks that were equipped with snaps for them.  He said when they rode into Mexican towns at a charge, they had a 1911 in each hand and the reins in their teeth.  He said most officers carried New Service revolvers, and that he liked revolvers better, but had no say in the matter, as he was enlisted. 
      I thought this was quite interesting so I thought I would share it with you.

    Regards,

    Jubal Starbuck

Offline litl rooster

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2012, 07:36:13 AM »
Too bad John Wayne not around to play the part. It's a good story
Mathew 5.9

Offline St. George

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2012, 08:50:55 PM »
I own quite a number of original images of the Mexican Punitive Expedition - a large number of them being that of Cavalry in the field - mounted and dismounted.

Never once have I seen two M1911s being carried, and the M1903's were carried either in a saddle scabbard (most common) or via a 'ring and bucket' arrangement (uncommon).

Age brings out the most interesting stories - I especially like the 'reins in the teeth' part.

Vaya,

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #3 on: Today at 12:32:44 PM »

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2012, 09:13:40 PM »
I can't imagine a newly introduced weapon being so common that there were more than one per person! 
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Offline litl rooster

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 07:51:54 AM »
I own quite a number of original images of the Mexican Punitive Expedition - a large number of them being that of Cavalry in the field - mounted and dismounted.

Never once have I seen two M1911s being carried, and the M1903's were carried either in a saddle scabbard (most common) or via a 'ring and bucket' arrangement (uncommon).

Age brings out the most interesting stories - I especially like the 'reins in the teeth' part.

Vaya,

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You say things so elegantly.  Anyone who has done any type of work from a horse would know better. Even Jimbo told the directors of True Grit so. He still did the stunt.
Mathew 5.9

Offline St. George

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 09:28:16 AM »
The whole 'reins in the teeth' trick could be pulled off by a man who was 'one with the horse' and instinctively rode.

The Cavalryman of the era wasn't that man - nor was he as well-trained as one might've thought - having come largely from the cities and encountering horses for the first time.

The 'Cavalry Drill Regulations' spell out the various saber maneuvers - and they did get pretty proficient with those, since they competed constantly in Garrison - and they did fire the handgun while mounted for the same reason - however very few were seasoned campaigners as they were during the Civil War.

Those were some damned forgiving horses...

As to the movies - if they ever filmed 'real life' of that time - folks wouldn't've stayed for the second reel - no matter how 'air-conditioned' the theater may've been in the summers.

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Offline TwoWalks Baldridge

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 01:16:30 PM »

As to the movies - if they ever filmed 'real life' of that time - folks wouldn't've stayed for the second reel - no matter how 'air-conditioned' the theater may've been in the summers.

Vaya,

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The thought that popped into my mind when I read this:

MGM presents the 4 hour epic thriller "Watch the Corn Grow".
When guns are banned, fear the man with a hammer

Offline litl rooster

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 04:59:30 PM »
it must star Costner if it's 4 hours long
Mathew 5.9

Offline The Elderly Kid

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 01:52:56 PM »
The only reins-in-the-teeth riders I ever heard of being affirmed were one-armed cavalrymen like Phil Kearny, who charged in this fashion with his sabre in his single hand. This was not a battlefield improvisation but a necessity they must have practiced often. Of course, it really looks great in movies. Toshiro Mifune did this in "The Hidden Fortress" with his sword in both hands, Samurai-style, and Sean Connery repeated the scene with a two-handed scimitar in "The wind and the Lion."

Offline Roscoe Coles

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2012, 12:12:49 AM »
Now there is much I doubt about the original tale.  Like others, I have looked at a lot of photos from the punitive expedition and never seen anyone with two 1911s.  They were expensive and the Army didn't give anyone anything more than what they thought they should have.

But, as a Civil War cavalry reenactor with the 9th VA in northern California, I once put the reins between my teeth, pulled two Colt armys, galloped across a plowed field, jumped a short split rail fence and shot up the 7th Michigan's colors.  When I got back to, my lines, the top kick said "that was great, don't ever do it again!"  All you need is a well trained horse and long enough reins, its not much of trick really.  The reins in the teeth don't actually do anything, you might as well tie them together and hang them over the forks or horn.  You control the horse with your legs, you just don't want the reins to slip up his neck and fall off, or worse, have the horse step on them.

Offline Crow Choker

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 11:24:09 PM »
I don't know, I would think and believe that a report from an active participate of the actual expedition told to his nephew outweighs reports of those that look at a few pictures, who were never there, then declare how it all went down! Not to say those who study past military weapons, equipment, procedures, etc are in the dark, but------!!!!! Just my thoughts!
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Offline St. George

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 12:34:34 AM »
And it's been my experience that those old boys could tell a helluva tale - regardless of anything resembling facts.

The photographic record and the records of Regular Army Cavalry during the Punitive Expedition don't suggest anything close to the related story told to a wide-eyed young nephew...

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Offline litl rooster

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 07:58:30 AM »
Some great stories here.
Mathew 5.9

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 10:48:40 AM »
"When myth and the facts don't jive, go with the myth", or words to that effect.
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I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne

Offline Mule Ear Mortensen

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 04:33:23 PM »
I suppose that is the reason we don't give "I saw it happen once in a movie..." a lot of credibility as a reference source.  ;D

I agree, I've never seen any pictures of the period with a combatant carrying anything but one 1911. However cameras were not overly prevalent at the time. Therefore I think that pictures were kinda official (staged) and nearly by appointment. Just maybe they don't tell the complete story either.

I do believe that the photographic record lends support to the fact that officers may have shunned the 1911 for revolvers. Then there is pattons aversion to Brownings masterpiece, that stems from that time period...
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Offline litl rooster

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 06:15:07 PM »
The storey i have read said Patton a young Lt. at the time was a procurement officer. He bought or swindel supplies in the name of the Government. Supposely carried a SAA, and had used it in pursuit of the enemy, on one such such foraging missions.
Mathew 5.9

Offline St. George

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2012, 06:33:26 PM »
As a young Cavalry officer, Patton served on Pershing's staff as the General's Aide de Camp - he had nothing to do with swindling anyone, at any time.

After being issued and using the M1911, he worked the sear engagement down to an unsafe poundage - causing an accidental discharge, and forever making him distrust the automatic pistol as a first line weapon, so he bought his 4 3/4" Colt and had it plated and engraved - his leather came from 'Tio Sam' Myers.

He used it successfully during an altercation with Mexican bandits.

You can view it and the companion 3 1/2" S&W Magnum at the Armor Museum at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

Patton had his first real taste of battle in 1915, when leading  8th Cavalry patrols against Pancho Villa at Fort Bliss along the Mexican border.

In 1916 he was selected as aide General John J. Pershing, commander of the American Expeditionary Forces in Mexico.

Pershing promoted Patton to Captain and invited him to lead Pershing’s Headquarters Troop once they left Mexico

You don't give jobs like that to just anyone...

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Offline litl rooster

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 05:09:05 PM »
That's a much better story that the one I had read several years ago. Goes to show you cant believe everything your read either.

The swindling was not a remark towards Lt/Capt/ General Patton but his employer. Far as I concern Gen Pershing never got the recognition he so well deserved.
Mathew 5.9

Offline Crow Choker

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2012, 10:27:09 PM »
     OK, I was going to let this one lay silent, but things need to be said. In the 'Expedtion' of question, according to what I researched, there were 11 Regiments, some 11,000-14,000 soldiers that were involved in the action. Not including the field artillery, the Signal Corps, and the Aero Squadron. Now maybe not all the regiments, companies, platoons, etc. carried two 1911's, but it could be possible that some did, as reported by the 'Uncle'. I know if I personally were to be involved in such a military expedition, I would want as much firepower as possible, regulations be dammed and if I could buy and get another, would carry two. I doubt if whatever the number of photographers that went, they didn't get photo's of every unit, no matter the troop size(as Mule Ear M stated). As far as the 1903's being slung over the back with a sling or in a scabbard, somewhere in a book or magazine, I saw a picture that was described as US Army Troopers in Mexico during the 'Expedition' and they had their 1903's slung over their backs, via a sling, while on horseback. Tried to find it, but not successfull. Not saying scabbards werenot the norm.

     Now if the Uncle told his 'wide-eyed nephew' they did it as he reported, I have no problem with it. My Dad spent a year before Pearl Harbour in the US CoastGuard (was in combat with German U-boats in the N Atlantic before war was declared-dropping depth charges on the subs), spent two years in the North Atlantic (convoy duty), 6 months in the Med, and 1 1/2 yrs in the S. Pacific (14 amphib landings).He has had to correct certain writings that were suppose to be the 'true' account of what happened in events he participated in. The writers who were reporting on events he was involved in and witnessed, wrote about them 40-60 yrs after the fact, but they weren't there, but relying on just the facts as they gathered them. Dad many times said "That's not how it really happened" and then would relate the facts. Dad just passed away last Oct 7th at 96, still a Proud Coast Guardsman!

    I spent 21 yrs as a Police Officer and there are a number of photgraphs of me in uniform, all showing a 4" Colt Trooper 357 Mag on my right side. Unless a person was one I served with or one I told, no one is aware that I most of the time (night duty) carried two revolvers. I had a S&W Mod 60 tucked in a holster behind my Sam Browne (behind my bullet loops), sight unseen. Now if a person was unaware of this and was told that I carrried two weapons and they had pictures or seen such ones of me, they may declare that the photographic evidence doesn't show this. Since they didn't serve with me or were never told, how would they know?

    Finally, St George, I don't desire or intend to get into one of the "post wars' that I see from time to time on this Forum, but I do appreciate your knowledge you've gained from research, studying, and even being involved with the many aspects of firearms and histroy, but even the best gained knowledge doesn't always have all the answers.  If the 'wide-eyed nephew' says his uncle related the facts as reported by Jubal Starbuck, then I have no doubt that it could have gone down as reported. I've known Jubal since we was wee lads and he is a pretty good measure of people (ie-can seperate the BS'ers from the truthfull). As far as the 'wide-eyed' nephew, well, I've never met him, but have heard alot of positive's about him. Oh yeh, the 'wide-eyed' nephew is desended from and related to Cival War, WW1 and WW2 vets, besides the Uncle who 'could tell a helluva tale' that was on the  Expedition. Another footnote-that 'wide-eyed' nephew is he himself a Marine combat vet of Korea (five times wounded), a Marine combat vet of Viet Nam, and retired a Major in the United States Marines. The 'wide-eyed' nephew then went on to serve as a Police Officer in a major city California Police Department and the California Highway Patrol for many years untill retirement age. A believeable man from a honored past!
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Offline Roscoe Coles

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Re: Use of pistols by the Punitive Expedition
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 09:02:02 PM »
Allow me to retort,
As a professional historian, I can not tell you how many times the memories of those who were there were either absolutely wrong or they just did not remember what happened.  Memory is not a fixed thing.  We tell stories over and over and the memories behind them change over time.  In addition, two people who were at the same event never remember it the same way.  This happens to everyone.  It does not make anyone a liar. 

So, how do we deal with that?  We verify through alternate and sources, where we can.  With the Army, we are lucky because there are records and photographs.  As a number of folks have pointed out, there are lots of pictures of cavalrymen wearing a single 1911 in the Punitive Expedition and I have never seen  regulations that would allow the issuing of two 1911s to US cavalry troops at this time (or ever).  If you think this was common practice, find the information to support your claim.  That is the burden of proof required for historians.  If you can't meet that burden of proof, its just a good story.

 

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