Leather Questions

[Dangerous Cody Waters]

Hi from a new guy.  I'm getting geared up for cowboy action.  I've been to a couple local matches, met some great folks and tried out some different shootin' hardware.  I'm starting with Ruger New Vaqueros in 38/357 and now need to get some leather for them. I saw a lot of cross draw rigs at the local club, but couldn't try any leather due to fit. I'm on the large size, 6' and about 285. 

I'm going to be just your average, generic cowboy to get started and plan to get strong/weak side forward cant holsters (no crossdraw) but would like input from you folks in a couple areas.

Ranger or tapered style gunbelt?  Any preferences from the CAS City folks?  Is the ranger style belt uncomfortable for those with some extra grth in the midsection?

Cartridge loops.  Do you prefer having the loops on the gunbelt or a seperate cartridge slide for the belt?  I think I would like a plain belt without the loops but would like any comments before I commit to have it made.

Thanks for any comments/advice from the experienced cowboys to help keep me on the right path to get started.

Cody

[Red Cent]

Ground rules. I am a competitor. I am a gamer. In the true sense of the word. I m never knowingly illegal. I shoot medium loads and wear custom trick leather. My firearms are tuned totally.

First, I agree with the double barrel forward. However, I think you may need to do something to carry it through. Some of us who are circumferentially challenged also tend to have the pelvis turned forward and down (lousy stomach muscles). Your canted rig will turn into a straight drop rig unless you have the belt custom made.Or push the back down and achieve a horizontal position for the belt. There are ways around this. One is a three piece belt. I hope some of the wonderful leathercrafters who inhabit this site will chip in.

Maintaining the cant, I prefer a somewhat exagerated front cut to allow the barrel to exit easily when drawn. I also do not like anything to be in front of the trigger guard but a layer of leather or less. This allows the weak hand to obtain a purchase on the revolver and allow it to be presented to the strong hand clean and open to the stronghand in one smooth motion.

The next thing to realize is that cowboy action shooting is one of the few gun sports that requires you to reholster at least one, if not two,  revolver(s) during the stage and on the clock. For that reason, the holster should be very stiff in the top of the holster. Here is a picture of holsters I used in heated competition.  They are  "surgically" reduced and made for speed.



You might ask why the cover up on the outside wall of the holster? Not really. As you can see, rolled out just a tad provides for a BIG hole to hit when reholstering.



Belt loops for bullets are superflous. Bullets weigh you down. Have the holster maker to put three loops about three inches in front of your stronghand holster and have them in a "fan" position. One pointing at 10:00, one straight up, and one pointing at 2:00. Easy to grab than a tight row. You will want to load a rifle round with the strong hand and a revolver round with the strong hand.

The holster needs very little retention. A good rig should be wet molded for fit but not much retention. As you can see, I purposely cover the trigger. I am used to other firearms discipline that reuired this and I think it is a safety deterrent. "Course, you cannot cock the revolver until you are pointing downrange.

Lesson over .

[Bugscuffle]

I agree with the above. The bullet loops are just not needed. You will not be reloading the revolver from the belt. The only loops you need are shotgun shell loops. The shotgun is the only gun that you reload during the stage (at least in SASS) Wild Bunch is a little different. I personally like to have the trigger covered by the holster on the side. No matter how much I practice and how hard I try, I can't keep my finger out of then trigger guard while drawing the gun. Having the trigger covered eliminated this problem. Also, Red Cent is right on about retention Vs fit. The gun should draw easily without sticking anywhere but not move around in the holster. The cant of the holster is pretty much a personal preference. Some people use a front to back sweeping motion to draw the gun and they usually prefer a reverse cant (handle canted to the rear). I prefer to use a rear to front scooping action so I cant my holsters about 10 to 15 degrees forward. It all depends on how you choose to do it.

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[Dangerous Cody Waters]

Thanks for the feedback, excellent points to consider.  Just fyi, I'm a CAS greenhorn, but have shot IPSC in the old days using 1911s and a forward cant holster in front of my strong side hip and more recently IDPA with an FBI cant holster behind my strong side hip.  I really like the forward cant for the draw.

I plan to get my rig from Red Dog Leather.  His holsters are heavy leather (and lined), and flared at the top for reholstering.  He can add a steel liner but says his all leather holsters will not collapse.  The rig I'm considering is similar to this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360494881913?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Here is my thought based on advice so far. 

Ranger belt with no cartridge loops.
Strong/weak side holsters with a forward cant of about 9-10 degrees (maybe a little more, still thinking).
Cartridge slide with 5 loops that I can place in front of right side holter (or elsewhere if needed).  I can fill with 5 or 3 (with empty loop between cartidges).
Shotgun belt with 10 loops in groups of 2, placed high on belt for easy access.

Any other things to consider?  Keep the comments coming.  Thanks.

Cody

[Red Cent]

Ranger belt with no cartridge loops.
Strong/weak side holsters with a forward cant of about 9-10 degrees (maybe a little more, still thinking).
Cartridge slide with 5 loops that I can place in front of right side holtser (or elsewhere if needed).  I can fill with 5 or 3 (with empty loop between cartidges).
Shotgun belt with 10 loops in groups of 2, placed high on belt for easy access.


I would have him drop the holsters until the top of the butt of the handgun is just below (or more) the belt. Those are too high for an effortless draw. I would order a 12-15 degree cant. The cartridge slide would be a nuisance. In all the years of shooting, I have encountered one reload requiring five rounds. Quite a few requiring one round. 

You must be shooting a double barrel. Sacrilege. An IPSC shooter with  double barrel. Oh well.

Did you develop the classsic IPSC draw when you competed? If you did, it works very well for cowboy. With stronghand, draw straight up, pivot handgun, meet weakhand, push for presentation and cock the gun before fully extended. If you learn the weakhand transition with one move, it will work with the weakhand also.

Wear a separate shotgun belt. This allows you to wear the rounds higher for eay access. And it is more comfortable. Have the maker put bullet loops on it also. Who ever makes your belt, have them make your shotgun loops of somewhat supple leather. You want a tad of retention for running but not enough to impede the "grab". I have both pumps and double barrels. In either case, I see no advantage of the "double loop". Search "you tube" for Red River Ray. One of the fastest with a double around. And he uses a straight row of loops. Another guy that is just as fast is Three Cut. He uses a straight row of loops. None of the top guns use a shotgun belt slide nor do they have them on the pistol belt. But I totally understand that it can be a personal preference.

I have seen a number of beautiful cartridge belts here. A bunch of North Carolinians buy "The Carver" belt. Canvas and leather. The correct leather for loops. His belts are "ready for speed".

http://www.russthecarver.com/

I am on my third belt from Russ.

[Bugscuffle]

Red Cent - If he wants to shoot SASS putting the handle at or below the gunbelt may not work out too well. The rules say that in all classes except B Western, "Some part of the handle must sit above the belt", and in B Western, "No part of the handle can sit above the belt".

[John Smith]

Red Cent - If he wants to shoot SASS putting the handle at or below the gunbelt may not work out too well. The rules say that in all classes except B Western, "Some part of the handle must sit above the belt", and in B Western, "No part of the handle can sit above the belt".

You know bugs, maybe you shoot at least one SASS match before you give advice.  Many matches do have reloads on the clock, and it's always handy to have a replacement if you lever a live round out of your rifle.  As to grip placement height on your belt, I think you will find that only B Western and Classic Cowboy specifys how high/low the grip may be.

[Bugscuffle]

You know bugs, maybe you shoot at least one SASS match before you give advice.  Many matches do have reloads on the clock, and it's always handy to have a replacement if you lever a live round out of your rifle.  As to grip placement height on your belt, I think you will find that only B Western and Classic Cowboy specifys how high/low the grip may be.

John, why are you trying to make an argument out of this? The rules state that Classic Cowboy can't have the handle completely below the belt and in B Western you must use a buscadero rig with the handles completely below the belt. Other than that the rules only mention the holster a couple of times. in the Gunfighter description it says that the competitor must use two "standard holsters", but it doesn't say what a standard holster is. When yoiu consider it, there are only two costuming categories listed, Clasic Cowboy/Cowgirl and B Western. All of the rest are either black powder (not a consideraqtion here), age group with no costuming considerations or the various shooting styles (dualist, double dualist, and the already mentioned gunfighter) It appears that the only two COSTUMING options are Clasic Cowboy and B Western. All the rest is either age group or shooting style.

[Modoc]

Dangerous Cody,

After having played the game for over 15 years and going through several sets/styles of leather, these are my observations:

Your pistol belt set-up is good.  The number of cartridges on the slide is personal preference, I have 5 loops, but one holds a cartridge screwdriver from Uniquetek and one loop has a turquoise bullet awarded to my for my work in our club.  The other three loops carry spare cartridges which more often get used when I double stroke the rifle and eject a live round. 
 
As for Shotgun Shells, I find myself using a dedicated belt that has individual loops on it.  My belt will hold a full box of shells, but that is because the matches that I usually attend will generally have a shotgun only stage that will use reactive targets and have a minimum of 12 shots.  Now, I don't usually load the belt full unless I am running a posse, then i do to limit my time at the cart while juggling the  timer and shooting.  A slide will work well for most stages, but when you start getting beyond six shells, it starts taking a lot of real estate on your belt.  I like to have a couple extra shot shells because of fumble fingers and stubborn reactive targets.

Page 10 of the SASS hand book gives the general requirements for holsters, while Page 14 talks about Classic Cowboy and Page 15 Covers the requirements for "B" Western.   http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/SASSHandbook-v18.2-2012Highlighted.pdf

[Dangerous Cody Waters]

Thanks for all the great input.  Just to clarify, the belt slide that I was thinking of was for revolver/rifle ammo and be on the gunbelt.  I was planning on a separate shotgun belt, not a shot shell slide on the main belt.  For the separate shotgun belt, how many rounds do you think it should hold?  10 or 12 or would you load it up with more?  How about having a few cartridge loops for revolver/rifle ammo on each side of the shot shell loops on the shotgun belt instead of the gunbelt? I do kind of like the looks of the canvas shotgun belts from Carver Custom.  What do you all think of a canvas shotgun belt with leather loops?

This is interesting stuff, keep the comments and advice coming.  Thanks.

Cody

[Modoc]

DCW,

I have a Canvas and leather belt.  When fully loaded, it holds 25 shot shells.  If I were doing another one, I would be tempted to have only 20 with a couple loops for rifle/pistol cartridges at 12 o'clock or 1:30 (mid-line) or 1/2 way across the front since I am right handed.  Part of the reason that I use a slide for my rifle/pistol reloads is that I have a tendency to mix and match guns depending on mood and what is loaded.  With 25-20, 357, 38-40 and 44 Mag, it is much easier to change a slide than have a separate belt for each caliber.

I do have two different shot shell belts only because I can't get the 20 gauge to stay in a 12 gauge loop.  The 20 gauge holds 24 since I only have doubles in that gauge.

The canvas and leather looped belt is a bit cooler when shooting in the summer compared to the all leather belts.  As a side benefit, I have found that the shot shell belt provides some pressure on the bad disks in my lower back and makes a long day at the range a bit more pleasant.

Another note, sometimes I will skip one loop between pairs of shells making it feel similar to a double shell loop while giving me room to add more shells if needed.

[wildman1]

Red Cent - If he wants to shoot SASS putting the handle at or below the gunbelt may not work out too well. The rules say that in all classes except B Western, "Some part of the handle must sit above the belt", and in B Western, "No part of the handle can sit above the belt".

BS yer WRONG B-Western below the belt, Classic Cowboy some part must be above the belt. The rules DO NOT say "in all classes except B-Western, "Some part of the handle must sit above the belt"" Nobody except you is tryin ta make this into an argument. Yer WRONG and yer misquoting the rules. WM

[Bugscuffle]

Wildman1 - Thanks for your post.

Maybe I AM confused, but I really don't think so. No, I don't shoot at the local monthly club matches due to an infirmity, but that infirmity does NOT prevent me from reading. Here is what I read in the rules and you can verify this here: http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/2011ROMaterials/SASSHandbook-17-2011.pdf  and please correct me if I am wrong.
There are two and only two costume categories in the rules, Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl and B Western. There are three shooting style categories, Duelist, Double Duelist and Gunfighter. There are several age based categories but none of them have either costuming or shooting style restrictions.

For the sake of brevity I will leave out the black powder categories as they are not pertinent to the original post. The only places that holsters are even mentioned in the rules are in the B Western category where the holster is mandated to leave the gun handle below the belt and Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl where the holster is mandated to leave the gun with some part of then handle above the belt and in the Gunfighter category where the rule state that two “standard” holsters are to be used and crossdraw and handle forward holsters are prohibited. “Standard” holsters are not defined. This is why I said “all classes”. It probably would have been better to have said “both categories”. But in this case “both” IS “all”.

Now I come to another question. Where in the rules, other than in the blackpowder categories does it allow two handed shooting? The only shooting styles described and presumably authorized are gunfighter, duelist and double duelist and all of these are one handed and unsupported styles.

[Red Cent]

I shoot what they call traditional. Two handed. You can shoot this way in a number of categories. In all the categories that allow two handed/traditional shooting, the holsters can handgdown to your knees. Lets say 49ers. No rule about where the butt of the gun should be. Senior, Silver senior, etc etc .
Bugscuffle, am I to understand you that in Elderstaesman I cannot have the butt of the gun below the belt?

[wildman1]

Ain't no way B Western and Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl is "all" catagories. Give it up. WM

[wildman1]

BS go to the forum users agreement. Have a look at it. Does it not say that you agree to NOT post anything that is INACCURATE or FALSE? BS

[August]

A "Standard" holster is one that holds the pistol with the top to the front, or butt to the rear.  The purpose of this rule is to re-emphasize the fact that butt forward holsters are not permitted in SASS.

After you've shot for a while, you'll begin to realize that transitions from one gun to the next are the essence of this game.  You'll also note that much -- if not most -- of the time it takes to complete a stage in involved with deploying a gun and then, on the other end, getting rid of it as you move to the next part of the problem.

Often, the last gun that must be acquired will define the problem and limit your options for how the first gun must be employed.  In other words, how you acquire and dispose of the first gun affects what it is possible to do with the second and subsequent guns in a stage.

There is a general principle among serious SASS shooters that one must be using both hands simultaneously to minimize the time it takes to make transitions.  We don't put down one gun and then acquire the next -- we do both these things at once.  This, of course, takes lots and lots of practice.  But, that's what the essence of the game is.  Minimizing the time it takes to get guns into and out of deployment.

For that reason, how you have your pistols holstered can help you solve transition problems or limit your ability to do so.  I agree that off-hand-cross-draw rigs look really spiffy.  They look mean and aggressive.  But, be warned, they needlessly complicate solving transition problems and sometime completely prevent the shooter from using the optimum solution on a given stage.  People have won championships with cross-draw rigs.  But, most folks hit a wall a few years into competition where they cannot keep up with the good shooters who use the double-strong-side set-up.  The cross-draw rigs present the further limitation of having to constantly be mindful of the cant of the off-side holster while drawing and returning the gun to leather.  Double strong side rigs do not have this problem and afford the cowboy the benefit of the convention that says "the shooter must be allowed to holster their pistol."  Please don't let that comment get us off track.  Simply put, the double-strong side rig will ultimately allow you to be a faster, safer, and smoother shooter.

Cartridge loops are just clutter on a gun belt.  You can't leave brass in them for any length of time without corrosion of your ammo.  An the placement of loops on gunbelts (i.e. at the back) is not helpful for actually acquiring ammo during a stage.  Reloads are common in SASS and you must have a rig that prepares you for that eventuality.  However, for rifle/pistol ammo, a small slide is all that's required.  You can put the rifle/pistol ammo slide anywhere and move it during a match to optimize your solution to a given problem.  I like wearing my rifle/pistol slide, which holds five rounds, over the last two shotgun loops on my shotgun belt.  You can't do that with a shotgun slide, but it's perfectly legal to do it with a pistol slide.

The only important thing on a gunbelt is that it be lined with rough-out on the back (inside) of the belt.  This will keep the belt in position once you get it where you want it.  All serious gunbelts and shotshell belts are lined in this way (Mernickle, Kirpatrick, El Paso, etc.)

I have had excellent service from both Kirpatrick Leathers and Mernickle Leathers.  Each has a great selection of rigs.  

You must have holsters that reveal the entire trigger guard and much of the top-strap of the gun to be able to adhere to the "two things at once" protocol of serious shooters.  If you buy any other kind of holster (i.e. the "traditional" styles), you will end up having to get a new set before you wear out the first ones so that you can move more efficiently.

So, call Kirpatrick and order a double-strong-side Longhunter rig with Shotgun belt.  The rig comes with ammo slides.

You won't be sorry.  It will last you a long time.  You will be able to improve without having to spend more money later.

[John Smith]

A "Standard" holster is one that holds the pistol with the top to the front, or butt to the rear.  The purpose of this rule is to re-emphasize the fact that butt forward holsters are not permitted in SASS.

This would seem to outlaw crossdraw holsters also, please show us where this is referenced in the "SASS Shooters Handbook".

[Bugscuffle]

John Smith, August, wildman1, Red Cent –

Here is what I wrote: “Here is what I read in the rules……..” I was referring to the posted rules, not to what is commonly practiced or accepted among the local clubs. I clearly stated the three non blackpowder categories IN THE RULES that even mention holsters. Nowhere in the rules does it say anything about shooting two handed, and that was the point that I was making. Cowboy/Cowgirl and age based categories are mentioned, but nothing is said about what holsters they can wear.

John Smith and August

Thank you for your descriptions of a "standard holster", but they do not appear in the rules. Are there supplemental rules somewhere? Why are they not incorporated into the rules?

Is this a failure on the part of SASS management of provide to their customers the proper guidance in the rules formulation and enforcement?

[John Smith]

Bugs, please read my post again, the "standard holster"  was a quote from August that I was questioning.