A Glimmer of Hope?

[Deadeye Don]

They're talking about USFA over at the SASS Wire.  Here's a couple of quotes:

"...a girl named Geryl answered the phone. I asked her a couple of questions and she said that the parts and service dept was not in yet and she needed to ask them my questions. She wrote down my questions and said she would get back to me. At 11:20 AM she called me back with my answers - 1) Parts are still available and they do still sell them, 2)They are still servicing guns so if I have a problem I can send it in to them, and 3)They have no plans on ever bringing back the Rodeo."

"Just called and asked if they were out of business. The girl said no but that any orders would take at least 24 months to fill. Beyond that she didn't seem to know what was going on."Two years to fill an order!?!   
Too bad about the rodeos. They were ugly as sin but other than the finish, they were the same as the premiums. And cost about $600. I'm hanging on to my .44 WCF's.
The worst news is Gary's not with them anymore. That's a huge loss for them, if they plan on staying in business.

OK so basically it will take 2 years to ..........................infinity to get the gun you order now?   LOL.  What a joke.

[Doc Sunrise]

I would say "A Glimmer of Hope" has faded away.  USFA assembled some great people making some great guns for a while there.  Problems that could never be overcome though, making the lower line models like the Rodeo at a loss, an owner who had a passion that drove a business model that never had a snow ball's chance in hell to work with the marketing numbers that existed in this field, R&D focus that went elsewhere on other ideas, machine time that was not utilized efficiently, and the dismantling of labor that became very specialized.  The final nail in the coffin is losing your premier person and his passion for this product field. 

If you see where pricing was, it showed that Colt's pricing with their current quality is good.  Being Colt is better, and it carries a weight that USFA could never overcome.  The Lower end is full of Italian models that have prices hard to beat, the upper end has a small nitch of customers that can go the extra over USFA to have a Colt.  What will Colt do now is really the question?

[Coffinmaker]

Colt???  Rase their prices of course

[Advertising]

[Graveyard Jack]

Friend spoke to Doug last Friday. He insists that the company is NOT going out of business. That the machinery was worn out and that they are going in a new direction. He said everybody would know in about a month. Only time will tell if it's true or not.

Being Colt is better...

Since when??? The only folks who still bought a new Colt over USFA are those who think the mystical Colt name has any meaning. USFA has been building a better SAA than Colt and at a lower price. Anybody who holds a 3rd generation SAA in one hand and a USFA Pre-war in the other (same ~$1200 price tag) and still picks the Colt, needs their head examined.

[Pettifogger]

Friend spoke to Doug last Friday. He insists that the company is NOT going out of business. That the machinery was worn out and that they are going in a new direction. He said everybody would know in about a month. Only time will tell if it's true or not.

Since when??? The only folks who still bought a new Colt over USFA are those who think the mystical Colt name has any meaning. USFA has been building a better SAA than Colt and at a lower price. Anybody who holds a 3rd generation SAA in one hand and a USFA Pre-war in the other (same ~$1200 price tag) and still picks the Colt, needs their head examined.

What makes you think your head doesn't need examining?  This Chevy vs. Ford, Colt vs. USFA stuff gets old.

[Graveyard Jack]

Because anybody who is not enamored of the Colt name can examine these guns side by side and see which one is better made. Anybody who has owned, disassembled and examined with a critical eye can see that. Colt, as improved as the new guns are, still cannot get their .45 dimensions right. I own Colt's and love them but it is undeniable fact that USFA's are better guns AND closer to the original Colt's than anything Colt has produced in 70yrs.

What makes you think your head doesn't need examining?  This Chevy vs. Ford, Colt vs. USFA stuff gets old.

In this case, it's not Chevy vs. Ford because one is CLEARLY better than the other. In some cases, as bad as some 3rd generation guns are, it's more of a Cadillac vs. Yugo. Elements of overall quality, fit & finish are tangible and quantifiable. This is not a difference of opinion as it is with Ford and Chevy. It's a difference of perception. Some folks, for whatever reason, get all starry eyed about the Colt name. I don't. I want the best SAA I can buy, regardless of the name stamped on it.

Colt vs. USFA stuff gets old.

Perpetuated by the fact that Colt fans can't accept reality. Besides, this IS the USFA forum. Of all places, we should be able to to discuss these things openly and honestly. Without Colt fans getting their drawers in a bunch.   

[Pettifogger]

Have lots of both, work on lots of both and all I can say is bunk.  After USFA has been in business over 175 years and has produced a half million single actions tell me you won't find a few lemons.  If you like USFA great.  I like them too.  But, your "undeniable facts" are based on YOUR subjective evaluation.

[Graveyard Jack]

I am as objective as possible. If you think Colt is wonderful, then enjoy them. Just don't get your drawers bunched up if someone says USFA's are better ON THE USFA FORUM. Cry "bunk" all you want, maybe it's YOU who can't be objective. There is a VERY good reason why Colt has vastly improved their guns in the last couple years and that reason, is USFA. If Colt's were "all that", then why would they have felt the need to improve their product? I'm not talking about the occasional lemon. I'm talking about a SAA that Colt does not even recommend you shoot. I'm talking about terrible over-polishing, dished-out screw holes, rolled-over edges, wallered out lettering, gritty actions, generous dimensions, etc., etc,. Most 3rd generation Colt SAA's look like they've been polished by an angry 700lb gorilla. Not to even mention the stupidly polished white-sided hammers. You know, all those things you Colt guys seem to overlook. All those things that are not an issue with USFA. Nor is an action job even required. You know, those things that cause our nation's premier gunsmith to say that most 3rd generation Colt's are too far gone to save, yet little can be done to improve a USFA.

As far as 175yrs goes, yes, that's exactly what I expect from Colt true-believers. Colt has been riding on military contracts for years now. Has not given a rat's posterior for the quality of their SAA's for most of 3rd generation production. 175yrs means nothing if their last 40yrs has been spotty at best. And for the record, I've spent a hell of a lot of money on Colt sixguns, replicas of Colt's and books on Colt's. The difference is that this has not blinded me to reality. That reality is that USFA builds a better SAA than Colt has in a very long time.

Funny how it's okay to say all day long that Colt's and USFA's are better than Italian replicas but the minute you suggest USFA's are better than Colt's, Colt fans come out of the woodwork. Do you guys not expect us USFA fans to defend our choices the same as you??? The difference being that most USFA fans were never satisfied with Colt's but most Colt true-believers never looked at a USFA with an open mind. If you don't want to hear this, go play on the Colt forum.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

I have been on this board longer than anyone who is currently active and I am a BIG supporter of USFA.  I currently own nine of them and am in the process of getting number ten, an unfired, unturned Henry Nettleton.  

To imply that USFA's are without fault is pure nonsense.  Two of the worst polishing jobs I have ever seen came from USFA.  Both nickel plated, both special order guns.  One, a 4" sheriff's model, I have learned to live with.  The other, a 4 3/4", was so bad that I sent it back to the factory for replacement (If you go back a few years on this board you might just find the full story on this one).  Both showed visible, curved ridges on the right side of the frame running from just below the loading gate up toward the hammer.

Doug Donnelly said that the machinery has "worn out?"  The first time we heard that excuse from him was over 10 months ago.  The "retooling" excuse was even posted on their web site last December while they still had the "Ask the President"  Q and A section.  

Of late we have been hearing Donnelly's mention of a "new direction."  If the old direction was quality SAA's, what in the world would the new direction be?  More projects like the Shot Pistol?

If things are going to get back to some semblance of order in "a month or so,"  why did Gary Granger recently decide to jump ship?  

The Colt vs. USFA debate is unavoidable and will go on forever.  The fact that there even is a debate is a tribute to USFA quality.  But the bottom line right now is a simple one... Colt is manufacturing guns, USFA is not.
  

[Old Doc]

I have been on this board longer than anyone who is currently active and I am a BIG supporter of USFA.  I currently own nine of them and am in the process of getting number ten, an unfired, unturned Henry Nettleton.  

To imply that USFA's are all perfect is pure nonsense.  Two of two worst polishing jobs I have ever seen came from USFA.  Both nickel plated, both special order guns.  One, a 4" sheriff's model, I have learned to live with.  The other, a 4 3/4", was so bad that I sent it back to the factory for replacement (If you go back a few years on this board you might just find the full story on this one).  Both showed visible, curved ridges on the right side of the frame running from just below the loading gate up toward the hammer.

Doug Donnelly said that the machinery has "worn out?"  The first time we heard that excuse from him was over 10 months ago.  The "retooling" excuse was even posted on their web site last December while they still had the "Ask the President"  Q and A section.  

Of late we have been hearing Donnelly's mention of a "new direction."  If the old direction was quality SAA's, what in the world would the new direction be?  More projects like the Shot Pistol?

If things are going to get back to some semblance or order in "a month or so,"  why did Gary Granger recently decide to jump ship?  

The Colt vs. USFA debate is unavoidable and will go on forever.  The fact that there even is a debate is a tribute to USFA quality.  But the bottom line right now is a simple one... Colt is manufacturing guns, USFA is not.
  

Good point !

[M McCracken]

As I've stated previously, USFA fans need to accept the obvious. USFA, as we've known it, is done! When the website is shut down, the phone disconnected, and the building vacated, there'll still be people saying USFA is alive, and anything to the contrary is 'rumor.' Even if USFA does come back, does anyone really believe they'll be making the same product with the same quality? I don't.

[Doc Sunrise]

Since when??? The only folks who still bought a new Colt over USFA are those who think the mystical Colt name has any meaning. USFA has been building a better SAA than Colt and at a lower price. Anybody who holds a 3rd generation SAA in one hand and a USFA Pre-war in the other (same ~$1200 price tag) and still picks the Colt, needs their head examined.

I have plenty of both and can say I have seen some fantastic work from both, and I have seen some royal crap from both.  On avearage the slight cost savings USFA may have typically will not overide the fact the Colt is a "COLT".

If a person was to choose between a $1300 USFA and a $1400 Colt, more than likely they are going for the Colt because it does carry a certain desireability over the USFA.  And now it also carries the fact that Colt makes you feel like they are going to be around in the future, near future anyhow.  I would have a hard time laying down money for an order with USFA with the Black Cloud they have hanging overhead and their responses to inquiries that just don't add up.  Over a few short months USFA dismantled the assembly of craftsmanship that it took a few years to build.  A company builds a brand by building a reputation on quality, service, and availability.  This is how USFA so quickly filled a void Colt left wide open.  The Quality craftsmanship left the building along with the go-to guy.  Machines may be retooled, but the assembly of craftsmanship to get back to the quality USFA would need to be at to compete with Colt will take years to rebuild.  And the very thing that hurt Colt so much was the availability of their products, which has greatly improved.  And now with shrinking demand, once again, Colt is in the right position.  The writing on the wall says USFA would have some seriously large hurdles to overcome to get back what it once had, and the demand just isn't there!

So, I repeat, at the high end priced SAA, Colt is better!

[Graveyard Jack]

If a person was to choose between a $1300 USFA and a $1400 Colt, more than likely they are going for the Colt because it does carry a certain desireability over the USFA.

That desirability is imagined. No doubt influenced by the plethora of misinformation getting passed around as fact. Particularly with regards to resale value. New Colt SAA's have been $120 for as long as I can remember. A used Colt is just that, a used gun and they depreciate like anything else once they're fired. USFA's are no different. Not to mention the fact that the only 3rd generation SAA's even worth buying in new condition are those made in the last few years. Sorry sirs but there is more "real Colt" in a USFA Pre-war than the modern, twice-cheapened replica from Colt.

I say again, if one handles a new Colt SAA, with its cloudy case colors, hot salt bluing and white-sided hammer in one hand and a USFA Pre-war with its vivid case colors, carbona bluing, case colored hammer and typically near-perfect fit & finish and still buys the Colt, they're nuts. Obviously blinded by the mystical Colt name which hasn't really meant anything in a long time. Any more than the modern Henry Repeating Arms shares any lineage with Benjamin Tyler Henry or his guns. It's just a corporation banking on a famous name with inferior products.

Let's see, if I had $1200 to spend would I rather have this hot salt blue, white-sided hammer, cloudy case color Colt:




Or would I rather have this carbona blue, vivid case colored USFA with a finished hammer??? Yeah, real tough decision.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Well let's be honest, photographs are not always fair.  Camera angles, flash/no flash, lighting... all can make a big difference.  Here, for example, is another picture of a Colt taken from Gun Broker.
 

[Old Doc]

Well let's be honest, photographs are not always fair.  Camera angles, flash/no flash, lighting... all can make a big difference.  Here, for example, is another picture of a Colt taken from Gun Broker.
 

I'm beginning to wonder if Colt is not sneaking some of their SA's over to Turnbull for case-hardening.

[Graveyard Jack]

Better case colors but still hot salt blue, no beveled cylinder, white-sided hammer and no clearcoat on the case colors. Not to mention that USFA's hammers do not rub the frame. Plus the USFA has the 1st generation triggerguard contour, while the Colt has the flat bottomed 3rd generation contour. Proper dimensions are another factor. Colt is still producing .45's with oversized chambers/throats. All minor details but when I'm spending this much on a sixgun, those details are vastly more important to me and a lot of other shooters than the name stamped on the barrel.

I don't know about the SAA but Turnbull is doing the case colors on the new New Frontiers. I plan on buying one in a 4¾" .44Spl but that doesn't keep me from accepting the fact that USFA has built better sixguns. Nor does it keep me from enjoying the New Frontier .45Colt I already have.

For Doc Sunrise's statement about the price difference. Comparable guns are Colt's SAA and the standard USFA single action. Which, last I checked, was at least $200-$300 less. The Pre-war is head and shoulders above anything produce by Colt in a very long time.

[Professor Marvel]

Lest the thread degrade into nothing more than another  "USFA" vs "Colt" discussion, might I drag it back to the original topic, to wit:

-  are there even any more USFA's revolvers  being built?
-  what is the actual future of USFA and western-styled revolvers?

 or is USFA as we know it slowly spiraling down the drain ..... 

I was hoping that I may be able to save my penneys and actually afford to buy one ....
altho at the current high-end cost I might rather consider a slicked-up Italian or even an affordablel original pistol, whether COlt or even something else ....


yhs
prof marvel

[Deadeye Don]

That is the problem Professor.  Nobody really knows anything concrete because as usual USFA (Doug D.) allows rumors to fly because he refuses to let his loyal customers know anything.   However, if you just read the postings in this thread I think you will see the hand writing on the wall.

[Buckaroo Lou]

With all the rumors going around, not only here but on other forums, and with no response from USAF I thought it best to snatch up this little item yesterday at the gun show. It is new and unturned with factory stag stocks. It doesn't have the high gloss black dome finish that my other USFA single actions do, but instead has a satin look with a definate bluish tint. Looks very similar to the finish my Turnbull USFA has and I think they call it Carbona blue. Not for sure if that is the correct spelling. I thought it might be a good investment. I plan on socking it away as a safe queen since I have others to shoot.

[mtone]

That would be a USFA Sheriffs model done in case and Armory (carbonna) blue.  3 1/2" barrel maybe.  USFA could tell if the stag was original to the gun.  It may also say it on the box label.  I also believe the days of the single action are over though I wouldn't be surprised a see a very few come out every now and then.