1863 Sharps Sporting Model Action Too Tight

[44caliberkid]

I just got an Italian replica Sharps, the 54 caliber black powder version and opening the action is near impossible.  Someone fired it and didn't clean it.  It would only open part way, about half the chamber uncovered, not far enough to insert a bullet or paper cartridge.  I took out the lever pin (instructions said the breech block should drop out) and had to drive the block out with a wooden drift and a hammer.  I cleaned all the slots and edges of the block and scrubbed the breech face good.  I still had to tap it back in (well oiled) and it will now open enough to chamber, but the last quarter inch is super stiff.  The interference seems to be between the breech face and the edge of the chamber.  I know these need to be tight for a good seal, but how tight is normal?  Most of the block surfaces are pretty coarse.  How far can I go with polishing the breech face.  Is the liner in the chamber supposed to move?  Mine doesn't, but I've heard that's how they are supposed to seal.

[PJ Hardtack]

44caliberkid

My experience is with my Shiloh '63s - a rifle and a carbine, both .50s. I also had a Shiloh '63 Sporter in .54. They all require immediate cleaning of the breech block to avoid seizing up.

I presume that your rifle is a Pedersoli; they have the sleeve you described. If it is fused in place due to poor cleaning, you have a problem .... as if you didn't know already ....

You're going to need the services of a good 'smith who knows the innards of a Ped. It can probably be salvaged.

I recommend you get on the Shiloh site and ask about it on the '63 page. Someone may have some useful advice beyond - "Ya shoulda bought a Shiloh ..."

[rifle]

Dixie Gun Works sells a tool for removal of that chamber bushing. A Pedersoli chamber bushing doesn't come all the way out but the tool can help you move it and work some solvent or penetrant into the space around it.

[Advertising]

[44caliberkid]

I should have mentioned, this is an IAB Marchenko made rifle, produced in 1977 and imported by SILE, N.Y., N.Y.
  Thanks for the advice.

[44caliberkid]

I found an old post where a member mentions that the sleeve in the IAB version doesn't move, is a press in.  But the breech face on the block is moveable.  I noticed a tension screw on the side of the block that looks like it holds the breech face plate on.
Here's a link to the old post:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=31169.0

Some further internet surfing, at VTI Parts, shows the Armi Sharps parts diagram, and refers to the chamber bushing as a "floating chamber", so I guess I need to hear from someone who has actually worked on one of these before I go at it.   Is AIB the same as Armi?
   Well, I found two more posts on castboolits from guys who own an AIB and both say their chamber doesn't move and one recommends keeping the breech face plate polished and clean.

[PJ Hardtack]

Are you sure that the screw you mentioned on the side of the block isn't the flash hole clean out screw? It will be directly in line with the flash hole in the centre of the block.

[44caliberkid]

Are you sure that the screw you mentioned on the side of the block isn't the flash hole clean out screw? It will be directly in line with the flash hole in the centre of the block.

Thank you.  Probably so.  I'm new to these, I was able to pick it up at an auction for $220.  Figured I couldn't go wrong for that.

[Missouri Ruffian]

I have a Pedersoli 63 and had a similar problem.  As I understand them the original Sharps 59 and 63 have a floating breech plug and a floating block plate (my research found some of the copies don't have a floating breech plug).  Pressure from powder ignition pushes the two (or one if that's all you have) against each other creating the seal. 

If yours is similar it will have a cone in the center with a hole for the cap to reach the powder.  Around the cone will be a circular opening for the gas to get behind the plate.  Mine was so filled with powder residue it didn' t look open.  I started with Liquid Wrench.  Then I found LCP Carbon Cutter which seemed to work well, mostly something to soften the fouling.

The next part was the most difficult it took a leap of faith.  Even though It didn't necessarily look like it I knew the plate had to come off.  I hammered a small knife blade into an almost invisible gap between the main block and the floating plate.  That started an opening and then it was a progresssion of soaking and prying, on all four sides of the plate, with different size knife blades and an old wood chisel.  They're hard, but I had to be slow and careful not to damage the block or plate.  I've read some models have a gap machined into the plate to allow insertion of a screwdriver tip to start the process.

It took a while, but they eventually separated.  I scraped out the fouling and lightly sanded the parts.  The block then fit much easier like I thought it should for a clean gun.  However, the floating plate was still a tight fit requiring prying with a knife to separate it from the block.  I found an grinder attachment for my Dremel.  It allowed me to comfortly clean up the inside of the plate for a nice slip fit.  The block now drops out like it was new.

I can't tell you anything about shooting since I'm still getting comfortable with the right selection of bullet.  I think I've settled on using the bullet designed for the Pedersoli Sharps.  That'll mean casting and that's another investment.

That's my experience, but of course yours may be different since your gun is a different manufacture. 

[44caliberkid]

Thank you, Missouri Ruffian.  I believe you've steered me on the right track.   From another post I found, dealing specifically with the IAB model, having the plate free to move is most important.  The poster stated that after he had it all cleaned and polished, that he used copper never seize on the back of the plate.   I also had no idea how to get it off, but from your description it appears to be a press in fit.   I also will have to get the bullet mould.  The Possibles Shop seems to be the cheapest source for that so far.

[Kent Shootwell]

Perhaps this photo will help. I found that the coil spring and plunger used on the IBA sharps to operate the lever can be part of the problem. Check for burrs on the lever and the plunger then grease well befor reassemblely. I even found one that the plunger was missing so the spring beared directly on the lever (not good!). Those Sharps with the chamber sleeve are ment as an adjustment device and don't move during firing, only the gas plate on the breech moves at firing. The fit of the plate to breech block should be very close and smooth a slip fit not press. The never seize is a suggestion.

[44caliberkid]

Kent, do you mean the spring that keeps tension on the big lever?  Mine has no plunger or coil spring.  There is a flat piece of spring steel ( about 1" x 1")  that is held against the receiver by the forearm and the front of the lever cams against it.  Or do you mean the plunger and spring that retains the takedown pin and lever?

[Kent Shootwell]

Yes the lever spring on some import Sharps were the spring and plunger but a proper Sharps copy should look like this. If that's how yours looks a dab of grease will still be of value.
 

[44caliberkid]

Mine is even different than that, but grease on the bearing surfaces will help.  Thank you to everyone who has replied.

[davemyrick]

This is what I would do with this rifle. i would leave the chamber sleeve alone except to polish its exposed face, making sure it is square to the block plane. Then I would remove the gas check plate from the breech block and polish the the inner face of the gas check plate and the mating surface in the breech block to the point that when the plate in inserted into the block and the block is turned upside down, the plate falls off of the block with a little shake or two. At this point everything will be polished and smooth and open and close easily but it will leak gas when a round is fired. In order to seal the chamber, take a toilet tank washer (available very inexpensively at your local home store) and slice it in half much as you would slice a bagel and insert it behind the gas check plate. It will take some effort to reinsert the block but when you do, you will have a positive gas seal as soon as the breech block is closed.

I performed the same repair to my own IAB Sharps several years ago and it is still going strong. It shoots better than I can hold it but from the bech rench it will shoot cloverleaf holes at 50 yards and 1.5" groups at 100. The tank washer will need to be replaced every 30-50 shots depending on how hot they are.

Dave

[rifle]

From what I understand an "O" ring is inserted behind the breech block plate to improve the gas sealing when fired. "O" ring is made of......I'm not sure but the Shilo Sharps forum fer the paper cartridge Sharps has Hombres there that will be glad to advise and help. Nice Pards there.
Someone mentioned that the floating chamber sleeves,as they are called are adjusting devises. Not so. They are made to let the gas push them rearward as the breech block  plate is pushed forward to seal the gases.
From what I understand the newer Pedersoli Paper cartridge Sharps don't haqve the chamber sleeve that moves anymore but have a hardened stainless steel breech block face and the fairly new "O" ring behind the breech block face improvement.
I don't believe IAB ever had the "O" ring or the moving chamber sleeve. Just the moving breech block face.
One word of caution with the Paper Cartridge Sharps rifles and carbines.  Powder brushed from the top of the breech block after loading and closing the breech can build between the barrel and the wood forearm. Enough powder under there and the gas escape upon firing can ignite any powder in the forearm and.....splinter it a good one and injure the shooter. Always check to see that no powder gets between the barrel and the forearm of these Paper Cartridge Sharps Rifles.
I sealed mine with some of that sticky wax used for those toilet installation seals. Handy stuff. Hardware stores and building supply stoes sell the sealing nrings of sticky wax.
I had a "45" Caliber Pedersoli Sharps Sporting rifle with the long barrel. That rifle and my good eyes ,when I was a good bit younger,  were hell on ground hogs(wood chucks) that dug big holes in the farm fields. That 45 caliber bullet shot like a cartridge Sharps and was good at long range. It was a 45 cal. bullet weighing 290 some grains. It had good enough sectional density to stabilize the bullet "way out there". One of the most accurate rifles I ever owned. The seventy grains of powder FFg I used was a good load.
Strange.....I just haphazzardly with no fancy loading proceedures droped the bullet in the chamber...gave it a little push with a short dowell  till I heard and felt the "snick" of the first driving band engage the rifling and droped in the powder...closed the breech block....blew the excess powder from the top of the block....capped the nipple and fired.
That danged rifle was sowell balanced and so easy to shoot with the set trigger I could regularly wack those vermine out at the 375-450+ yards with great regularity. It was one of the best experiences I ever had with a non-cartridge firing gun. Shot as good as a custom muzzleloader with the fast twist barre land the false muzzle or a cartridge Sharps. The paper cutter Sharps shot that well with no special fancy cartridge building like then predecessor cartridge Sharps. You know...how people sometimes search for a good load cartridge in a Sharps forever. Not with the Paper cutter 45 I had. Drop the bullet,fill the chamber with powder,cap and fire. Just too simple and easy. Great gun that Pedersoli.
I still have the mould for the bullet that came with the gun and a new never used spare mould. The .451 bullet at 290 gr. is a good one fer a 45 that takes that size bullet. The moulds just sit in my drawer with all my older moulds building dust. The rifle has been gone a long while. Blew too much gas and got gas cutting and....no one back then, no one, could instruct me on how to fix it or fix it fer me. One reason I turned into a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith. Had to learn to do things myself. Unknowing to me the breech block face on my gun was defective and didn't move or come off. It was really pressed on there. Never knew then that the breech block face was supposed to ove. It functioned well enough with just the chamber sleeve moving for quite awhile. Traded it in on the new fangled cartridge Sharps I have now. Now I have a regiem of loading cartridges with extra care and precision and use every trick I can come up with to keep the cartridge gun shooting as good as the old paper cutter did with no fancy fanfair or do-ins at all.