Real world accuracy

[pghrich]

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Lets here some real world accuracy with your clones, amazingly enough i shoot my uberti hombres better than my beretta, the trigger on both of them came in from the factory at about 3lbs, i put a washer behind the main spring and now they are about 2 lbs, my beretta breaks at about 3 1/2 lbs and it came from the factory with the washer already installed. Anyway with my 64 year old eyes the best i can do off hand at 25 yards is minute of bowling pin, i usually hit 20 out of 25 pins when i really concentrate, pghrich

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Well dang, I have no idea how accurate my Hombre is at 25 yrds.  So the best I can do in the accuracy department follows.

24" target - 21 feet - 100 shots, 60 hits all under .700ths of a second.  my best to date.

[pghrich]

WOW!, I never shot in any cas event yet, maybe someday, i dont know anything about speed shooting but that sounds fast, i may try to simulate that style of shooting at my local club [at paper of course] could be fun. right now all i do is shoot in  bowling pin matches. pghrich

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

WOW!, I never shot in any cas event yet, maybe someday, i dont know anything about speed shooting but that sounds fast, i may try to simulate that style of shooting at my local club [at paper of course] could be fun. right now all i do is shoot in  bowling pin matches. pghrich

STOP!  Do not take another step!

pfhrich, Cowboy fast draw is done using special prepared cases, 209 shotgun primers and wax bullets.

FAST DRAW IS NOT SAFE using live ammunition.

[pghrich]

Hello and thanks for the concern, i really was not going to actually fast draw from my holster but fire at a paper target holding the gun with two hands as quickly as possible, i responded to your personal pm, again thanks pghrich

[wildman1]

Regular primers will work jes fine and ya can make wax bullets from sheets of BPbullet lube. works great. WM

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Hello and thanks for the concern, i really was not going to actually fast draw from my holster but fire at a paper target holding the gun with two hands as quickly as possible, i responded to your personal pm, again thanks pghrich

No problem pghrich, for some reason I did not receive your pm reply, so please do not think me rude for no response.

[pghrich]

That's ok, i really have been going thru the ammo now [thank God i reload] this past week i probaly averaged 50 rounds a day and i shoot at least 4 days a week [retired] i think its time to get the heritage rough rider out, pghrich

[petrinal]

this the accuracy I was able to get from my UBERTI CATTLEMAN, at 25 metres (around 27 yards), wiht a light bullet of around 215 grains and 28 grains of 2F black powder in 45 Colt.

this day I was inspired




thought not so much this other day..

[petrinal]

Lets here some real world accuracy with your clones, amazingly enough i shoot my uberti hombres better than my beretta, the trigger on both of them came in from the factory at about 3lbs, i put a washer behind the main spring and now they are about 2 lbs, my beretta breaks at about 3 1/2 lbs and it came from the factory with the washer already installed. Anyway with my 64 year old eyes the best i can do off hand at 25 yards is minute of bowling pin, i usually hit 20 out of 25 pins when i really concentrate, pghrich

you might need some olympic target glasses of the type I am showing in my post,  as they will really help you to focus the sights and target witouth effort the the same focal plane. I jus cant do it with my naked eyes, and this glasses make my life a lot easier.

you may use a lense, specially made to focus your sights, or a diapragm...which works better is a matter of trying.

otherwise, if you are involved in serious accuracy shooting, you wont get top results.








I know that they dont fit much in the best Far west fashion, but they are very helpful.


CESAR

[wildman1]

I believe that is dioptic shooting. It really has nothing to do with "Real World Accuracy".  WM

[petrinal]

I believe that is dioptic shooting. It really has nothing to do with "Real World Accuracy".   WM

 it has a lot  to do with real world accuracy specially at 25 yards, or 25 meters, as they are a must  in serious bulls eye matches,  like MLAIC matches, for instance.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVUDlRcO9f8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVUDlRcO9f8</a>

if you pay close attention, around 90% of the shooters use them. Some of then, not clearly seen in the video, might be using diafragms or a lense  attached to their presciption glasses as well.

for shooting bowls they might be very useful too, specially at 25 meters, and  I would recommend you substitute the diafragm for a lense, that will give you a wider view, as they do in Rapid fire pistol shooting, as they have to shoot 5 targets in the same stage, as soon as possible... you just need a lense that focus your eyes in the sight, leaving the targed unfocused, and your sight problems are solved. It is the only way to solve aging eye problems when focusing your sights.

if you pay attention, you will see that most of the shooters are using shooting glasses with special lense in the shooting eye, that makes focusing the sights automatic, effortless...and they are still young....with no focusing problems in the eye.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za6sOzUis-I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za6sOzUis-I</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8QuLYXKNCg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8QuLYXKNCg</a>

not very practical for certain CAS MATCHES, but very useful when accuracy does matter.

all the best

[wildman1]

IF YOU pay close attention, yer missin the point.  WM

[petrinal]

the better you see, the better you shoot..as they say in KNOBLOCH, the german manufacturer of shooting glasses.

this is the model I recommend for you if you are having some problems with focusing your sights,

 http://www.knobloch-schiessbrillen.de/wp/en/shooting-glasses/k1/

 with age, the eye tends to become more lazy, and likes focusing only  large distance objects, not on the closer ones like your sights. Even if you get your eyes focused on the sight, , visual defects will alterate the shape of both the target, making it oval or disfused, and the sights wont seem sharp......

 so,  if you are already needing glasses for reading, you surely need shooting glasses that will make focusing your sights effortless.
 seeing a perfectly clear picture of your sights

http://www.knobloch-schiessbrillen.de/wp/en/shooting-glasses/k1/

it is good to try both,  a diaphragm  system and then a lense and see what you prefer, or, even, combine both. You can also use color filters to increases contrast, like yellow. This allowed, as far as I know, in matches.

and the more clear you see , fewer mistakes you will make.

about the COLT  SAA configuration, the main problem is the trigger, too thin, to the side of the axis of the gun,  that increases mistakes when pulling it.

in my case, it took me more efforst to get first class accuracy from my UBERTI Cattleman than from the Taurus Gaucho and the COLT SAA...specially with BP reloads.

they are not the most accurate of SAA clones, and the chambers, at leats in mine, which is 15 years old, are too big for a 45 colt. As far as I know, the new ones are much better.

Cesar

[Coffinmaker]

Well ...... kind of silly.  Punching bulls eye type targets at 25 yards/meters with a SAA or a reproduction there of is an exercise in futility.  SAA type guns simply aren't built for it.  They were designed for "minute of man" up close and personal.
The action is too imprecise, the sights are rough and .... and ..... Real world is more like minute of pie plate regardless of enhancements to vision.  A course sight picture is a course sight picture.
So ..... The accuracy shown on the above targets is actually about average.  To get better, prepare to throw money.  Lots of it.

Coffinmaker

[petrinal]

Well ...... kind of silly.  Punching bulls eye type targets at 25 yards/meters with a SAA or a reproduction there of is an exercise in futility.  SAA type guns simply aren't built for it.  They were designed for "minute of man" up close and personal.
The action is too imprecise, the sights are rough and .... and ..... Real world is more like minute of pie plate regardless of enhancements to vision.  A course sight picture is a course sight picture.
So ..... The accuracy shown on the above targets is actually about average.  To get better, prepare to throw money.  Lots of it.

Coffinmaker

well, dear COFFINMAKER,

that means 2  things, according to what you say:

-that the best target shooters, in the old times, compiting, for instance,  in BISLEY, England  and defeating the best british shooters with their Webleys, were just silly.....by the way, the COLT BISLEY, with offers no advantage at all, but the trigger, rounded, over the standard SAA, was designed mainly to compete in those matches..in 1897..

-that here today,  in EUROPE, we are silly, as we compete in the most serious bulls eye matches  at 25 meters with Colt Frontiers, and italian reproductions... among other metallic cartridge  guns of the western period...getting, sometimes, very good results in terms of accuracy.

maybe what it is really silly is to shoot  the gun only at 10 yards, when the gun has potential for more......

by the way, in MLAIC they shoot Remingtons 1858 cap and balls, as well as COLT ARMYS, and Roger Spencers, at 25 meters in Mariette type matches...and at 50 meters in Donald Manson modalities......getting quite atonishing results too.

let me share with you the following articles,  written by the WORLD champion Jose Ramon Galans Talens...in several international disciplines involving metallic cartridge historical revolver (pre 1890 designed), cap and ball revolver and pistol, and Black powder rifle:

(I recommend using a translator not to miss the good info contained in)

this one is about the 44/40 and his use in bulls eye matches in 25 meters shooting, modality called PIÑAL here, in honour of a famous gun designer here.


http://www.avancarga.com/8_articulos/cartucheria/44-40_wcf/44-40wcf_6.htm

we  are holding  nacional championships every year here in my Region, city of OVIEDO, and the most widely use gun is , by the way, the UBERTI CATTLEMAN, in 44/40 or 45 colt,  of course, at 25 meters in the international standard pistol target (ISSF)

This one is about cap and ball revolver shooting at 25 meters, for the most serious competitor...Mariette modality according to MLAIC rules...


http://www.avancarga.com/8_articulos/25/1_revolver/temas/3_mariette/3_mariette.htm

this one is  about MUZZLELOADING revolver shooting, at 50 meters...DONALD MANSON according to MLAIC


http://avancarga.com/4_interesante/donald_malson/donald_malson.htm

I dont think that these guys are stupids......by the way, and you may learn with them, in 1 hour, far more about revovler shooting than reading 10 years Guns of the Old west....

  let me add, that accoding to me military trends of the day, the original guns were not designed to be shot at close distances, as at that time the sword and spear were still used, but they were designed to be used at large distances, either to kill the horse or the raider, be it a LANZERO MEXICANO or an INDIAN....that why the longer barrels and normally diminute sights.

the design and configurarion, specially his SA action, of the COLT SAA make it ideal for target shooting, as it has a great combination of balance and short frame size, along with a very comfortable grip, inherited from the COLT NAVY. Just the trigger is too thin, a problem solved in the COLT BISLEY, but they spoiled the gun with another and uncomfortable grip design, probably conceived for shooting with gloves, as it was the trend in the day.

a Colt SAA was probably the most advanceD target shooting pistol of the day because of the reasons explained above, far better than the British double action revolver, Webley typ,  bigger, and with less balance. Not in vane the gun defeated this british revolvers several times, in the hands of the greater shooters of the day, both american or british, as the gun sold well in the UK, at that time, the most advanced nation in target shooting, holding legendary competitions in BISLEY.

today, the COLT SAA, and the Remington 1875/90, remain great shooting tools,, but, unfortunately, the italian manufacturers have focused more in dynamic shooting modalities than in bulls eye models.

all the best

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

petrinal. I have for one have found this information very useful and it helped increase my education.  Thank you for this information.

[cal44walker]

Coffinmaker said "prepare to spend lots to get better" He did'nt say it could'nt be done. You might be lucky and get the Uberti or original SAA that had all the chambers machined perfectly in line with the bore of the barrel, had all the throats reamed to the same size, had the trigger pull just right with no creep, had the barrel rifled perfectly and concentricly with the bore....... but there is a reason an Uberti costs a 1/4 of what say, a Freedom Arms revolver does. Don't try and tell me that your standard out of the box Uberti Cattleman can print 3/4 inch groups at 25 yards. It can't. Period.

And if the sights were not deficient on the SAA, why oh why did Colt introduce the Flattop Bisley? And all the people using the diopter type glasses are at least in thier 30's, most a good deal more, when average human eyesight has already begun to considerably diminish. The sight picture on a standard SAA is the same, 20/20 vision or not.

I can't help but notice that you seem to have a very, shall we say, typical European superiority thing going on. I've been following a few of your threads with interst without saying anything but I think the time to say something has arrived. You are making 2 types of posts, the first is with this snooty know it all attitude that is often not backed up by proper fact and the second is the rather poorly disguised dissaprovement of the way things are done in the USA. I'm also a European so I've been exposed to the same socialist crap as you, but I grew up in Texas before moving back here. I don't think you are going to gain too many friends with the kind of posts you continue to drum up. I'd think a little more before I spoke if I were in your position, but thats just my opinion and you can do whatever you want with it.

cal44walker

[petrinal]

petrinal. I have for one have found this information very useful and it helped increase my education.  Thank you for this information.

you are welcome, thanks so much. Long live the COLT SAA!

[petrinal]

let me add that in fact, in the accuracy aspect, my UBERTI is not specially accurate, I just found a load that works well, which is a lot cheaper than going to a famous gunsmith, spend 600 dollars, and use the load that he recommends..after doing expensive "improvements"...that might work...or not.

I spent 60 dollars in a new hammer, as the revolver is second hand and it had to be replaced, and another 30 in a new bolt. Then I added, with glue,  and a tapered pin, a small plate in the front sight, as the gun was shooting the left...you can see it in the picture.

it was all I did to the gun, believe  me or not.
.

well, about the SAA, as far as I know, in 1888 there was already a target version of the revolver, with rounded trigger, lower hammer, flat top  windage ajustment rear sight, and interchangable front sight....that predated the BISLEY ...in short, shooters of the time were well aware of the possibilities of this great design in  target shooting and they wanted adjustable sights.

the BISLEY was mainly a gun designed, as far as I know, under the advice of the famous Walter Winams, an active competitor in Bisley, England... and they spoilt the good grip and handling of the original design......maybe he was shooting with gloves....but the BISLEY is not better for target shooting than the original SAA, and as I said, there was a flatop SAA before the Bisley.

I dont agree at all with what you say about shooting glasses with diopter.....it is not only a matter of age, but a crucial advantage when compiting, as they will let you  see, perfectly clear, both sights and target  in the same focal plane...wether you are  young or not.

in other words, to improve the accuracy of your UBERTI, do your part:

-work in a great load...it took me many trials until I got the right combination of powder and bullet...it may take a year to develop it..

-Install a rounded trigger, and a bit wider...you may include  a trigger stop, if you want. You can do it yourself. If you dont and cant or dont want, just pay attention when pulling the trigger, to avoid mistakes...it is too thin, the biggest drawback of the design, and probably, the only one..


-buy some german shooting glasses...lense, diopter... you choose....and you will get the most from.....yourself.


all the best

[Coffinmaker]

Well Pet,
I'm not your "Dear."  I'm not married to you in any way.  So:  take your condescending attude and waltz it to where the sun doesn't shine.
Over a century ago, there was a reason to "compete" with SA hand guns.  The only game in town.  Today, there are so many better choices for punching paper, turning an SAA or reproduction there of into a paper puncher can only be described as something just for grins.
As a Gunsmith and competitive shooter, my knowledge is based on hundreds of guns worked on and tens of thousands of rounds fired.  Not
from some obscure reading material. 
Those who just think they know it all, are a real pain to those who actually do.  Oh, don't quote American History from afar.  Here, we get to walk the streets where it really happened.

Coffinmaker

[cal44walker]

Well, I guess the secret is out.........change your Uberti trigger out with a Bisley wide version and work up a load, buy some glasses and you'll be shooting a 600/600 every time. How come no one else has come up with this before I wonder. And never mind the cylinder throats of my Uberti SAA that are smaller than the bore of the barrel, the bullet will magically bump up anyway. Sheeeeesh.

cal44walker

[wildman1]

Coffinmaker said "prepare to spend lots to get better" He did'nt say it could'nt be done. You might be lucky and get the Uberti or original SAA that had all the chambers machined perfectly in line with the bore of the barrel, had all the throats reamed to the same size, had the trigger pull just right with no creep, had the barrel rifled perfectly and concentricly with the bore....... but there is a reason an Uberti costs a 1/4 of what say, a Freedom Arms revolver does. Don't try and tell me that your standard out of the box Uberti Cattleman can print 3/4 inch groups at 25 yards. It can't. Period.

And if the sights were not deficient on the SAA, why oh why did Colt introduce the Flattop Bisley? And all the people using the diopter type glasses are at least in thier 30's, most a good deal more, when average human eyesight has already begun to considerably diminish. The sight picture on a standard SAA is the same, 20/20 vision or not.

I can't help but notice that you seem to have a very, shall we say, typical European superiority thing going on. I've been following a few of your threads with interst without saying anything but I think the time to say something has arrived. You are making 2 types of posts, the first is with this snooty know it all attitude that is often not backed up by proper fact and the second is the rather poorly disguised dissaprovement of the way things are done in the USA. I'm also a European so I've been exposed to the same socialist crap as you, but I grew up in Texas before moving back here. I don't think you are going to gain too many friends with the kind of posts you continue to drum up. I'd think a little more before I spoke if I were in your position, but thats just my opinion and you can do whatever you want with it.

cal44walker

I agree with your assessment of this "gentleman" 100% but in view of your assessment do ya think your post will in any way shape or form change his way of "thinking" or posting? WM

[petrinal]

Well, I guess the secret is out.........change your Uberti trigger out with a Bisley wide version and work up a load, buy some glasses and you'll be shooting a 600/600 every time. How come no one else has come up with this before I wonder. And never mind the cylinder throats of my Uberti SAA that are smaller than the bore of the barrel, the bullet will magically bump up anyway. Sheeeeesh.

cal44walker

let me share some measurements in my UBERTI


chamber 1 :

11,62 mm

chamber 2

11,625/63 mm

chamber 3

11,675...not being perfectly round...the swaged lead ball, measure twice, according to micrometer..varies from 11,64 to 11,675...

chamber 4

11,64 to 11,67 mm

chamber 5

from 11,65 mm...

chamber 6

11, 64 to 11,66 mm

barrel inside diameter

11,5 mm

 in my UBERTI Cattleman, chambers are too big for a 45 colt, and as a matter of   fact, I get many cracks in my cases...so the problem in many UBERTIS, at least in mine, is that...and also  a certain variation in the roundness of the chambers...not as round as my COLTS or my Taurus Gaucho..which, by the way, are more moderate in dimensions...around 11, 60 mm...a bit less.

measured with a micrometer, of course.





will a reamer  make the gun more accurate...? yes or  no,  who knows.... and probably no.... as you will have to make those chambers even bigger, developing many more broken cases.

working on the forcing cone will make the gun more accurate? if the barrel is not adequate for the type of bullet you are using, for instance, lead, no, it wont neccesarily.

will making the front side of the barrel flat to the inside? in general yes, it helps. It is my experience.

before taking your gun to gunsmith, and spend hundreds of dollars, it makes sense to try your best to get 100 % from yourself (glasses, training, finger control) and from the gun, like a good trigger.

in this Uberti Confederate clone,  in 44 caliber, I added a wider trigger, (the picture is more than 1 year old, and yes, the gun is still not cleaned..)





just adding a wider trigger made me improve in the acccuracy aspect, as it let me make fewer mistakes when pulling the trigger, as this target shows, at 25 meters, one hand held., Note that I added a trigger stop as well.





working in a good load, which can take very long, can make you get excellents groups, and will help you to discover that maybe your gun deserves a "second chance", before getting rid of it...or spending hundreds in modifiying...


this is 1860 belgian Centaure, and the target is at 25 meters, one hand held, and only the impacts which the lights passes through, were made with the gun (I shot a previously used target, with 38, 9mm and 22 impacts)

[petrinal]

Well, I guess the secret is out.........change your Uberti trigger out with a Bisley wide version and work up a load, buy some glasses and you'll be shooting a 600/600 every time. How come no one else has come up with this before I wonder. And never mind the cylinder throats of my Uberti SAA that are smaller than the bore of the barrel, the bullet will magically bump up anyway. Sheeeeesh.

cal44walker

well, this type of matches, made with historical weapons, are normally limited to 13 rounds, for a maximum of 100  points, as they discount the 3 worse impacts.

if you use glasses, work up a load, modify trigger with a rounded and wider one, and do your part, with a firm grip, and the right pull on the trigger, you might be going from mediocre scores of about 70 points, to over 90  points or more.

I insist, the barrel in my UBERTI is 11,5 and the chambers around 11,62.

all the best