Go suck an egg. . . .

[Dick Dastardly]

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I had a call this evening from an fellow mold designer.  He wanted to know about lead exposure.  From his call I learned that he was looking for "safe" parameters for lead on the atmosphere where bullet casting was taking place.  I said "ventilation".

I'm sick and tired of being the authority on safe limits of lead.  Come on pards, you are responsible for your own actions.  If you smoke, eat, pick your nose or otherwise ingest lead, it's your own problem.  Get real.  We all have a certain number of days on the planet and then we leave.  Your exposure, or lack of it, is NOT the determining factor.

I love you all, but I refuse to be responsible for your exposure to lead. . .

DD-MDA

[zymurgeist]

Send them here. 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

You ARE right, Dick.  They're actually paying you a compliment by acknowledging your vast knowledge.

But it is US who is responsible for us'ns.

Not you.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ok, rant off.

Yes, we are responsible for our own actions.  Informing ones self of the ramifications of the process we choose to engage in is adult behavior.

Now, go enjoy our sport and use "due regard" to safety.

DD-MDA

[PJ Hardtack]

There are industrial parameters regarding lead exposure. My late sister was an industrial health nurse for a major smelting company that had an ancient lead producnig plant.
Workers in the lead refinery were paid a premium for the work and their blood monitored regularly. When their lead count passed a certain limit, they were simply removed from the environment until it went down!

Many long time employees suffered ill effects from this, some dying before their time. The entire valley was contaminated with lead and other heavy metals to the point where a foal could not eat the local hay without crippling effect. The local community was famous for it's vegetable gardens grown in the same soil!
A friend who was a lab tech for the company died early of cancer, as did many other long term employees.

An IPSC pal did his bullet casting in a double garage with no exhaust fan. He was in a position to get his blood checked any time where he worked and over a number of years, it never gave cause for alarm. Unless you're in the business of producing tens of thousands of bullets commercially, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[john boy]

OSHA has a blood level count industrial standard of 40 micrograms/dL

Non Industrial Blood Count Standards:
Adults: Less than 20 micrograms/dL of lead in the blood

Children: Less than 10 micrograms/dL of lead in the blood
 dL = deciliter

In NJ, one is reportable to the Dept of Health if their count is 12 or higher.  Mine was & I got a telephone call with an interrogation and lecture from the NJ Dept of Health.  I'm now running between 9 & 10 with a blood sample taken every 6 months

And contrary to rumors, I don't bite bullets to determine the Brinell hardness!   This was one of the stupid questions from the Health Dept - do I ingest lead?

[PJ Hardtack]

For most of my career as a natural gas tech and serviceman, I used a thread sealant called "Master's Metallic Compound". It contained lead. I had occasion to take apart fittings I had put together 15 years earlier and they were still gas tight.

They took it away from us and replaced it with another compound that dried out and leaked after less than a year. I was sent to investigate a gas odour at a new $15 million fire hall in a suburb and found leaks everywhere. You guessed it - the joints had been put together with the new compound. The whole building had to be redone.

We lobbied to be issued the old compound again, but the work place health regs banned it because of the lead content. We promised not to eat it, but they wouldn't back down.

[Dick Dastardly]

Typical gov't thinking.  Blow up the building, but don't allow any, and I do mean any, trace of lead.  Hell, the lead was held captive in the fittings.  DUH!

We are safer now, huh?

DD-MDA

[PJ Hardtack]

"Hi, I'm from the gummint and I'm here to help you .... "   Yeah, right .... so don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out ....

We also used to carry rolls of asbestos tape in sealed plastic bags so no fibres could escape. We'd wet it and make a ball of the right size, put it on a corrosion hole, cover it with a steel disk held in place with a 'C' clamp and weld it shut. Worked like a hot damn!

Asbestos became the next 'Bogey Man', so it had to go. What they replaced it with didn't work and we had a difficult time it. At the same time, a decommissioned Frigate was being stripped of it's asbestos insulation for environmental reasons prior to being sunk as an 'artificial reef'. Stripping it ashore caused all kinds of problems with loose fibres whereas when wet, it's harmless. The ocean is littered with ships with asbestos insulation.

[Pappy Myles]

I've been casting since about 18, took most of the precautions.  Finally last month took a blood test and found I was a tad over.  Got a letter fron the Texas HEalth Department and 2000 questions over the phone.  You'd though I was glowing in the dark.
Anyway, I'm now in the progess of installing a vent hood and shell on my "casting Bench".  Hopefully when I penetrate the outside brick wall with the duct, I wont take the wall down.  lol

[wildman1]

DD I honestly did not know ya were an expert on lead exposure. I will spread the word in case anyone has any questions. Is it OK if I post yer phone #?  WM

[Dick Dastardly]

Just kidding huh?  Wildman?  Say yer just kidding please.

DD-MDA

[wildman1]

Come on now DD ya know if yer the smartest kid in the class ya gotta hep the rest of us Dummies. I always carrie a 45/70 bullet on a chain around my neck, guess I'm gonna have ta quit that.  WM  By the way DD's # is $%#--&&*-)&^$.

[Cookie]

Funny story - when my wife was 8 or so, she got in a verbal back-and-forth with her 6-year-old sister, each yelling "SUCK AN EGG!" over and over. Her exasperated father walks in and announces that "The next kid who says SUCK AN EGG WILL SUCK AN EGG." At which point her 4-year-old brother pipes up with "go suck an egg." So the 4 year old spent several minutes on a chair with an egg in his mouth. 

I had a call this evening from an fellow mold designer.  He wanted to know about lead exposure.  From his call I learned that he was looking for "safe" parameters for lead on the atmosphere where bullet casting was taking place.  I said "ventilation".

I'm sick and tired of being the authority on safe limits of lead.  Come on pards, you are responsible for your own actions.  If you smoke, eat, pick your nose or otherwise ingest lead, it's your own problem.  Get real.  We all have a certain number of days on the planet and then we leave.  Your exposure, or lack of it, is NOT the determining factor.

I love you all, but I refuse to be responsible for your exposure to lead. . .

DD-MDA

In all sincerity I have to ask - what exactly are you so mad about that you're telling a " fellow mold designer" to "Go suck an egg"? From your post it seems there are several possible causes for this anger, most of which are contradictory...

1. He assumed there were "safe" levels of lead exposure?
2. Or... His knowledge of the negative effects of lead exposure was not total and absolute?
3. Or... That he asked your opinion on the matter?
4. Or... By asking your opinion, you would somehow be liable in the event he was injured?
5. Or... That he considered lead exposure something to be concerned about, when it is in fact NOT a concern?

Like I said, I'm a bit confused about what exactly you're mad about since your rant was all over the place. But, I am sure (as a fellow businessman) that coming onto a public forum unsolicited and bad-mouthing someone for daring to ask your advice on something directly related to the products you're selling is a pretty bad PR move. Next time, tell your dog.

Please believe that it's not my intention to start some flame war, and I fully know that the hardcore members of this group will back you up. But it's not the hardcore forum-goers you have to worry about - it's the much higher numbers of people who read these posts everyday that never post a thing. They just take in information, form opinions, and move along... and every one of them is a potential customer.

There's plenty of posts on this forum and elsewhere of people complaining about merchants who couldn't be bothered with their customers, and how they'll never do business again. And in this economy, a business doing that is committing suicide.

Remember that in marketing, perception is reality.

[PJ Hardtack]

"A soft word turneth away wrath".

Cookie makes a good point. I jumped into that thread with an anecdotal comment, hoping to diffuse what I perceived as a potential 'hot button' topic. Fortunately, it didn't escalate.

Several times I have received PMs from 'newbies' on this list and others asking questions they were afraid to ask on the open forum for fear of being dumped on. For some reason, they felt that I would respond civilly to a civil question - no matter how simple or obvious to the illuminati.
This surprised me, as I have a reputation for not suffering fools gladly or for long, but it was gratifying that this did not deter them from asking.
Everyone has to learn, and the best way is to ask questions. The Army taught me that the only stupid question is the one you are afraid to ask. By stepping up and asking it, you are helping others who lack the intestinal fortitude to do so.

By and large, this list is very good to the 'newbies', compared to another I belong to, one dedicated to BPCRs of a specific brand.
There, you don't dare ask a question of the cognoscenti lest you be ridiculed and talked down to. And God forbid that you should offer a contrary opinion!  Fortunately, this is exactly the kind of bullying that raises my hackles and I really enjoy the fight once committed.

Don't give dirt and you won't get it. Give respect and it will come back to you. It's the 'Cowboy Way'.

[Deadeye Dick]

Cookie, PJH,
Hear! hear!
Deadeye Dick

[Wagon Box Willy]

3M 6291 Half Facepiece Respirator Assembly, $18, use in a variety of applications including welding, brazing, torch cutting, metal pouring, soldering, and exposure to lead, asbestos, cadmium, arsenic, and MDA for concentrations up to 10 times the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL).

[longinosoap]

Dear Dick,

I have been coming to this forum for a couple of years to learn all I could about shooting black powder and the subs, which I understand you are not a fan. I respect that. I have learned a lot from your many posts and wisdom on this forum. I have also been enlightened that you run a company, Big Lube molds, and have "advertised" your wares on this free forum.

I cannot understand, for the life of me, why you would come onto this public forum and ridicule a potential customer for inquiring about a potential health risk by using one of your products. Seems to me , instead, you would want to ease all of his concerns in order to satisfy a customer. After all, the golden rule of business is 1) The customer is always right, and 2) If the customer is wrong, reference rule #1. Or at least it used to be. I am no longer convinced this is the case any longer in business.

If I may, I would like to offer you some advice. Sit down with your customer service representative and explain to him that without consumers, your business is nil and void. For all business is reliant on customers. Sometimes those in the business world forget this small inconvenience. And like someone said, next time, go tell it to your dog if you need get it off your chest.

Thank you and have a great day.

Yours in making smoke,

Soap

[Dick Dastardly]

"I love you all, but I refuse to be responsible for your exposure to lead. . "

I stand by that statement.

DD-MDA

[cpt dan blodgett]

Silly me, I saw nothing wrong with the original post.  Dirk could have chosen to list the things one should not do, but rather chose to list those things and state if you did them it was your problem.

Seriously is there anyone left in this country that does not know, you need to wash your hands after using the toilet, picking ones nose, scratching certain areas?  Does it not follow then if you are messing with a potentially hazardous material hand washing would be in order prior to eating, smoking or sticking ones fingers in contact with any mucous membrane.

[PJ Hardtack]

Well, Capt., fact is a LOT of folks don't know what might be considered to be common knowledge regarding potentially hazardous materials and substances. It's both a matter of education and habit.

Remember lead based paint on the window sills we used to gnaw on as rug rats? I know a lady who removed all the lead based paint in her house - without wearing a mask! She paid a terrible price with her health.

Is there anyone over 60 on this forum that didn't play with mercury as a child? A lot of thermometers were 'accidentally' broken for our amusement, and I recall doing the same thing in the science classroom, the lost mercury disappearing between the hardwood floor boards. Who knew?

Remember DDT? I recall seeing cans of it and 'Raid' in the kitchens of some pretty high end restaurants I got into as a technician; along with various rat and mouse poisons.

And you obviously haven't used many public washrooms if you think everyone washes their paws after a session, despite signs advising this.
Our church insists on a "shake a paw with someone you don't know" ritual at the height of cold and flue season, something I find appalling after watching people blow their noses and wipe those of their kids. Christians are immune, dontchaknow .....

Is there any pregnant woman out there that doesn't know the dangers of ingesting alcohol and other mind and mood altering substances? And yet we continue to have FASD babies and drug addicted new borns.

Who doesn't know the basic food rules and yet we keep stuffing ourselves with 'fast foods' and pre-packaged crap not fit for a dog. Diet and exercise as the keys to good health comes as a total surprise to many people - after obesity and diabetes. Look at our kids; the first generation that may not live as long as their parents.

I could go on, but you get the picture .....

[Cookie]

Seriously is there anyone left in this country that does not know, you need to wash your hands after using the toilet, picking ones nose, scratching certain areas?  Does it not follow then if you are messing with a potentially hazardous material hand washing would be in order prior to eating, smoking or sticking ones fingers in contact with any mucous membrane.

Is there anyone? Of course there is... even assuming that many things are "common knowledge" (ie - things every adult knows), you certainly aren't born with that knowledge, that means there's at least 10,000 people learning some item of "common knowledge" every day! And that's just in the USA.

Since no one is born with common knowledge, that means they need to be taught it, and often they fail to learn simply because so many of their elders simply assume they already have that knowledge.

Heck, I'm sure most people on this forum remember when there was regular and unleaded gasoline and what exactly that meant. Common knowledge, right? Well, you have to be pushing 40 for it to be so common. That's just one example. The simple fact is that the upcoming generation is so wrapped in bubble wrap that can you be surprised when they don't have any knowledge of how to deal with something truly dangerous? Can you really blame them? They've been so over-protected they assume the world is a safe happy place.

I'm a part-time adult educator and you'd be surprised how uncommon common knowledge can be. And it's Cpt Dan's attitude that causes that, not some failure of the uneducated.

How many times will someone who lacks knowledge keep asking if they receive the above response? Then where will we all be?


To Dick:

Just to be clear, I respect you Dick, but I respectfully disagree with you. I think giving someone needed advice does not make you "responsible" for them. But refusing to give that same advice, especially when morally required does make you responsible (as in refusing to tell someone how to easily avoid brain damage).

I also feel that lead exposure is not something to be taken lightly like you seem to. And I think proclaiming to a public audience that lead exposure doesn't matter enough for someone to be concerned is pretty irresponsible. Luckily there's enough solid information on this board to counter your post and I hope everyone reading this realizes that.

And lead exposure is directly tied to your business whether you like it or not. (You make molds for pouring molten lead into, after all.)

Your main advertising avenue seems to be this forum,  and so you've stated that your company policy is to tell anyone who asks your advice to "Go suck an Egg".

Several have mentioned so far that they think this is an obviously unwise business decision, but you're an adult and this is still a (somewhat) free country. Do what you want.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Maybe it boils down to we are not dealing with something that is common knowledge.  How is one to know what alloys to use, what temperature the pot should be maintaining.  Bottom pour vs dipping, iron/steel vs aluminum moulds.  Types of lubes, proper sizing dimensions the list goes on.

Where does one obtain said informaition - the manual that came with the casting equipment, or if one obtained used equipment without a manual one had better of obtained one.

Turns out the written word also contains the appropriate cautionary info concerning lead exposure.  Failing that one could google casting bullets cautions.  First listed is Tacticool products - lead safety.

I am beginning to understand why Claymore Mines have "Front Towards Enemy" cast into the front cover.

The billions spent on Flu season precautions also seem to be terribly misspent.

[Dick Dastardly]

Each and every Big Lube®LLC mold comes with the following warning.

WARNING

Melting lead and casting objects will expose you and others in the area to lead, which is known to cause birth defects, other reproductive harm and cancer.

That warning is an industry standard.  Lyman, LEE and others use similar disclaimers.  This warning is repeated on both sides of the product sheet.

Just how to avoid excess exposure is not explained.  OSHA information, as already posted, is readily available to the person wanting to learn about exposure to lead.

DD-MDA

[Cuts Crooked]

DD has been coming here since the day this place opened. And he has been at the head of line when comes time to help others.

This is the very first time he has felt the need do a small rant....I can give him a break for that. Every once in a while I get on my soap box too, so do many others. No one is here is much hurt by this, it's the way of life so to speak.

Time to let this one go.