buffalo hunters cartridge belt

[Professor Marvel]

I ran into a posting on a thread on another forum that stated that hunters could drop a ball into the chamber
and chase it with a charge of powder, close the breech and shoot. For myself I had never heard of this
having read that the breech was designed to nip off the end of the paper cartridge as it closed. Would it
have been advisable or even possible to charge a buffalo rifle this way? Has anyone else run across this?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Greetings My Dear Bruce -

I cannot at this moment relate an Historical reference to loading a Sharps Paper Cutter with loose powder, perhaps later I will find one.

However, I have had a cheap Italian copy ( IAB) of the Percusion Sharps Business Rifle in .54 caliber for some years now.
I have shot it with the following :

1) Self-made paper cartridge, using nitrated paper,  ~ 435 grain .54 Sharps "Christmas Tree" or "Ring Tail Bullet" ,
    and ~ 65 grains 3F Goex

2) Self-made paper cartridge, using nitrated paper,   Lee .540" diameter, 415 grain Improved minie  ,
    and ~ 65 grains 3F Goex

3) Rimless Brass "sharps' cartridge" with both the above bullets and ~ 60gr 3F Goex
    as seen here: http://www.buffaloarms.com/Percussion_Sharps_Brass_it-164313.aspx?TERM=sharps

4) Loose 95 gr 3F Goex and both the above Bullets

5) All of the above ( paper cartridges, brass cartridges, and loose powder ) and a cast soft lead .54 Roundball

All of them work reasonably well in my IAB, some combinations are more accurate than others. None of them are as accurate ( out of my IAB) as a regular cartridge rifle ( or even my patch and ball ML rifles ) . I attribute the lack of accuracy to the IAB itself.
I generally get "minute of paint bucket" groups with this thing at 75-100 yds.

When I get enough time to play with it, I will try some lighter loads which may provide the accuracy I desire.

When using loose powder, I have found it is useful to pour a measured amount into the chamber so as not cause the overflow.
Excess powder ( after the action is closed ) can spill into the works under the fore-arm, and has caused unfortunate results for other folks.

I can also relate that the "loose powder" load of 95gr 2F and a ~500 gr or greater bullet, kicks worse than anything I have shot, and leaves the most remarkable large multicolored bruise on the shoulder.

hope this helps
yhs
prof marvel

[Professor Marvel]

By the by - I should also note that my Sharps paper-cutter (even with the O-ring fix) has enough gas blow-by out the breechplate to knock a baseball cap off....

yhs
prof marvel

[wildman1]

Could be why them ol-timey shooters didn't wear baseball caps.    wM1

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[dusty texian]

Is that why some hat brims point straight up?,,,DT

[PJ Hardtack]

I had a gorgeous.54 Shiloh '63 Sporter with DST. The chamber held up to 100 grs of powder! Coupled with the traditional 'Xmas Tree' bullet, it got my attention when I touched it off.

I sold the rifle without regret and shortly after that, the buyer flipped it yet again. Wonder why ....... ?

BYW - Shiloh does not recommend shooting their '63's with loose powder as it accelerates gas cutting of the breech face. Don't ask me the difference as that is what you have when the 'cigar cutter' shears of the base of a paper cartridge.

The whole thing dispels the conventional wisdom of compressed BP being essential or bad things will happen. There isn't much compression after the base is sheared off.

For my other '63's, I make chamber length cartridges which prevents powder spillage and the accumulation of unburned powder where you don't want it.

another BTW - the Brits considered adopting the '59 slant breech for their cavalry and came damn close to doing so. The problem was the poor gas seal that was burning the cuffs of too many expensive uniforms! Five regiments were so equipped and the troops loved them and it saw service in India.

It was the first arm with a two piece stock ever considered by the Brits. By the time the gas escape problem was improved (never cured), other types were approved for adoption - all British in origin.

[Professor Marvel]

I must say, I was rather amused (at the time) when I discovered  that the escaping gas was torching the brim of my well-worn-in fedora ...
it made an amusing scortch -line and gave it more character . backing down to 65 grs reduced that blow-bye considerably and using a brass cartridge reduced it even more.

PJ - regarding the requirements for "compressed load" , this has been a topic on several forums for some time.

Our own good WCF-44 has disected a number of  period cartridges and found airspace between powder and bullet in many.

It seems (but I cannot prove) that the issue is seen almost exclusively in closed-breech designs, such as a percussion rifle.
It seems the issue is less evident in flintlocks ( the vent ) , revolvers (with cylinder gap) , and the sharps paper cutter.

There has been speculation from those with advanced learning, that the issue stems from a wavefront, a standing wave, or a maginfied wave ( from a temporarily tuned cavity thingy) causing a pressure spike. It was heavily studied in cannon & etc, not so much in small arms.

but then one would expect to see "an issue" in a lever-action rifle as well, so the mystery continues...

yhs
prof ( confounded) marvel

[PJ Hardtack]

Gas cutting seems to be the bane of the '63. I had the gas plate of my '63 carbine custom done by a Canadian 'smith under direct supervision from Kirk Bryant of Shiloh. It came back to me fitted tight!

It didn't take long for gas cutting to take place using chamber length paper BP rounds. I still love it and WILL be shooting it more! All this talk makes me remember how much fun it was.

BTW - at the risk of being shot for heresy, one of my experiments utilized a 60 gr Pyrodex pellet rolled with a lubed bullet. Looked authentic and shot well in the bargain. Easier to handle than a round made with loose powder, especially when hunting.

I just posted some historical info re: the Brit Sharps 1855's elsewhere on the BROW forum for those interested. Saves me from posting it here.

[PJ Hardtack]

Do not have cartridge belt however I had a bandelero made.  It is cool beyond description however I rarely wear it as it is so heavy when I include shells. holds 60.  I do not know how they wore TWO bandeleros of those in the movies.  Looks good but when you have a pair of them and a Sharps one needs to workout to take them out hog hunting..Lost deep in the heart of Texas

When I got my first Shiloh (a Business Rifle) I bought a canvas cartridge belt. Wore it a couple of times. Oh, so cool, but stuffed full of rds, it was literally a pain in the posterior to cart around, not convenient for hunting and useless for BPCR silhouette.

If I fell in a creek wearing it, I was most certainly going to drown. Now I use belt slides that hold six 45-70/six 50-70 rds. If I need more for hunting, that is the day the bear wins. If I need more on the range, my wood or plastic ammo boxes are at hand.

[greenshoots23]

picked this up at what we call a car boot fair over here for a pound £1 think it will make a nice canvas belt for my sharps

greenshoots

[PJ Hardtack]

Very nice! Similar to what to what I got from "Wolf Ears", but with a single billet buckle arrangement.

Show it to us again after you sew on the bullet loops.

[Mike]

Looks like a cinch for a English saddle.
 

[PJ Hardtack]

I think you nailed it.

[Professor Marvel]

picked this up at what we call a car boot fair over here for a pound £1 think it will make a nice canvas belt for my sharps

greenshoots

My Good greenshoots23 -
that is a remarkable find, please keep us informed of your progress! Now I shall have to watch for a cheap canvas english saddle cinch...

yhs
prof marvel