Little difference between The Holy Black and the Heathen..`Stuff`

[Paladin UK]

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Little difference between The Holy Black and the Heathen..`Stuff`

One of my pards seems to think that Sootlords are NOT disadvantaged by using the Holy Black in that we can effectivly shoot on a level playing field!!

I personally disagree, first up he has NEVER shot a match using just the Holy Black so it is pure speculation, and I know that different days means different ways, in that a dry hot summer’s day has a hell of a different effect on the HB when compared with a damp, cold Autumn day.

Still those are my opinions pards, what if any, are yours.

Flame away!!!

Paladin (What’s gotsta know ) UK

[Abilene]

While humidity and sun angle play a definite role, I think it is mainly wind or the lack of it that makes the biggest difference.  On calm days, the smoke slows me down little if any on pistol targets, a fair amount on shotgun (which of course puts out more smoke than the pistols), and quite a bit on rifle targets.  Dodging and weaving can only help so much. 

Actually, I've been known to change my mind when packing up to leave for a CAS shoot when I find out it is going to be very windy, and switch from planned BP shooting to smokeless.  If the wind is just going to blow the smoke away quickly, it isn't as much fun IMO 

[Abilene]

oops

[Dynamite Bill]

shootin subs iz a wienies way of PRETENDING ta play wit tha BIG BOYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cookie]

If the wind is just going to blow the smoke away quickly, it isn't as much fun IMO  

I completely agree. People always always say something like, "Boy Cookie, I bet you're glad this wind's picked up!"

Heck No!!!   No Smoke = No Fun.  


@Paladin - Simple, just hand 'em YOUR guns and let 'em rip! He may even get converted to the DARK SIDE!!!  

May favorite = shooting BLINDLY through the smoke and hearing a nice big CLANG! Use the Force Luke!

[Dick Dastardly]

Rite from the git-go, I've only shot Genuine Powder, the One True Powder, Gun Powder, Black Powder.  Cowboy Action shooting is couched in circa 1880.  As such, black powder was the only option.  The "Fog of War" is part of the experience that our ancestors encountered when the West was being "tamed".

Loading black powder ammo is simpler and safer than loading Heathen Fad Smokeyless powder ammo.  Simply fill the case so that the lube sized bullet compresses the powder about 1/8" when seated and crimped.  No chance for a double charge cuz it'll just make a mess and spill all over the bench.

Pressure is lower in black powder ammo and thus more of the old original guns can be used safely with it.  Of course, those same low pressure loads also work very well in modern guns.  I frequently shoot a brace of Ruger Vaqueros chambered in 44 Extra Long Russian, known as 44 Magnum to those in Rio Linda.  I'm very pleased with the accuracy and function of my guns.

If you took away black powder, you'd also take away Cowboy Action shooting for me.

DD-MDA

[August]

Great topic.  It's a pleasure to see other people's take on this topic.

The biggest problem with shooting black powder fast is the mindset the shooter brings to the line.  For a long time, I viewed it as a category where people took a little bit more time to acquire targets and, therefore, shot strings were generally slower than those of smokeless shooters.  However, if the shooter thinks he can operate a BP-charged firearm as fast as a comparable smokeless firearm, this handicap becomes zero.  In other words, what you expect and visualize is pretty much what happens at the line.

The next biggest problem is the weight of the charge and bullets we tend to use.  It's darn near impossible to run light bullets and, at the same time, carry enough lube.  The longer bullet designs offer enough real estate for big lube grooves of the "big-lube" type.  I've tried to run 105 grain bullets in my pistols and it results in misses due to fouling at some point in the match.  Also, there is the (often ignored) minimum powder charge specified by the rules.  Using a full house load against some geezer shooting 90 grain bullets with 0.5 grains of smokeless powder just doesn't end up the same way on the clock.  In other words, if smokeless shooters used loads with the same power factor as most BP shooters, parity would be closer at hand.

The next problem after that is how stages are set.  There are stages that are "black powder friendly" just like there are stages that are "gunfighter friendly".  To be black powder friendly, targets have to be widely spaced so that black powder shooters can acquire targets in the same amount of time as smokeless shooters (and, conversely, so it takes smokeless shooters as long to acquire them as black powder shooters).  Often, rifle target placement is done in a lazy fashion where they end up too closer together and too far out for black powder shooters to possibly keep up the same pace as smokeless shooters.  We should complain (just like gunfighters seem to constantly do) when stages dis-advantage us vis-a-vis smokeless shooters.  Let me warn you that such complaints are not met favorably due to the afore mentioned "mind set" problem.  This is fed, in part, by that lame statement in the rules that "black powder shooters are expected to have to deal with obscured targets."

The next problem after that is range lay out.  When ranges are properly oriented to the Sun, the playing field is close to level.  However, early in the morning, late in the day, and with ranges facing any direction other than due North, the lighting presents problems to the black powder shooter.  Any lighting other than ideal causes targets to "blend" with the background making them very difficult for black powder shooters to identify after the first round goes down range.  It's like shooting a whole skeet round of low house station six birds at dusk to fire on a range that is improperly laid out.  At big matches, there is always a need to start very early and finish very late in the day.  This definitely dis-advantages a black powder shooter at those times of day, or on poorly laid-out ranges.

Should we care about all this?  I think so.  When we consider "our game" as having a built-in disadvantage it affects our performance, the respect we get from other shooters, and our overall attitude toward action shooting.

On a good Summer day, with the Sun directly overhead, the humity at 60+%, and the mind of the shooter free of pre-conceptions, black powder shooters can shoot just as fast as any other shooter on the range.  He's gotta really hang on to them pistols to do it.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The first time I competed with my Uberti '66 and BP. I realized that the Lyman #2 rear sight would NOT let me see anything except smoke.  I persevered, and even hit the mover at Fort Kusk without seeing it.  After that I simply removed the eye piece.

At least I could see.


Through a cloud; - Darkly!


P.S.  Pistols and shotguns are held differently, allowing some visibility of targets with the non-aiming eye.

[Ned Pepper GB]

Now I reckon my Old Buddy PUK is referring to a comment I made to him  in his post.

I think something should be clarified here in as much as all of us over here in the UK use Holy Black in our pistols so we are all Sootlords to a certain degree.

We are only allowed cap and ball pistols and I for a number of years used factory black powder shotgun cartridges, (no wimpy loads,)  so two pistols and shotgun were using holy black, a two thirds Sootlord! if you like.
I did not feel disadvantaged.

The only difference is my rifle rounds were and still are nitro. ( 44/40 8.0g Unique)

I have also since changed to using nitro loads in my shotgun.

Now if it were all nitro competing against all black then maybe I would agree there may be a disadvantage

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

[Paladin UK]

Ho Pards…

Like I said at the start of my thread, I feel that shooting a comp using Only the Holy Black particularly in our enclosed pit range is a disadvantage against a shooter who is not!!

Why do we have different classes/categories?    Because they are shot differently!

These remain my feelings.

Ned as always is entitled to his opinion.

Thanks ta those pards what contributed to make this an  innerestin thread 

Flame off and God bless all cowboy/girls

Paladin (The Uk`s First Worthog  ) UK

[Fingers McGee]

Well, the way I see it; of course it makes a difference.  Shooters of that evil nitro stuff don't have to contend with the smoke from HB.  Don't matter what the conditions are, smoke always gets in your eyes; just that sometimes Mom (mother nature) blows it away faster.

Fingers

[Slowhand Bob]

Do not confuse a sub, like APP, with smokeless powders, you may not consider it holy but it makes just as much smoke.  When I first made the change to the old Clean Shot BP sub I really felt it was smokier than the Goex FFF I had been using.  When I am shooting BP cartridge, the other shooters do not have an idea that the sub in my cartridges is any different than the  real bp in my shot shells.  Some bp shooters will notice but just as many do not, they are to busy with their own thing!

[Dynamite Bill]

does everyone else holler BOOM! when you pull the trigger, or do you just here.............pow.

[Slowhand Bob]

Actually non of the smokeless shooters ever notice and even put on the same little show for me that they would for any other bp category shooter.  The occasional dedicated bp shooter who occasionally does notice a difference are seldom tipped off by sound signatures but rather by the different smell.  Almost always they will come to me quietly and ask if something is different BUT then there is the rare individual who handles things differently.  You will recognise him, he makes sure of that by climbing up on the tallest pile available (usually necessary) and hollering "Look at me and how smart I am!  Yawl did't notice something but I did because I am really smart."   Naturally everyone is  and starts applauding every time he comes around in the future!   

[wildman1]

After a day of shootin I can smell whether or not someone has been shootin some of the substitutes, Pyrodex especially leaves a distinctive odor. WM

[Slowhand Bob]

For cartridge loading I have used the long defunct Clean Shot, Pinnacle and APP pretty extensively.  It is different from the real black when someone is paying attention, the sound, the smoke color and the smell but I seldom notice these during shooting and this is even taking into account that the shotgun portion is still shot with Goex ff.  It is when I shoot cap and ball that I really realize the differences and it comes across to me then as if the black powder has the smell and the sub was missing it??  I am starting to sign up for everything as Frontiersman and this will require that I shoot everything but the rifle using Goex.  One thing that can really be affected by using real bp is the time it can take away from ones posse time.  No matter how I slice it there is always more logistics time required for real bp shooting. 

This comes back to my opinion on how subs, not smokeless, differs from the real black powder.  That real difference for me was the loading of cartridges and bullet lube needs.  With only a bit of squint one can miss the differences during shooting BUT they become really apparent when loading the cartridges.  Regularly lubed bullets (even unlubed) will work excellently and I really hated all the nasty oven work required to remove the old wax and then pan lube the bullets for cartridge loading.  Even then the rounds were a messy deal here in the south coastal plains on summer match days.  Reloading also becomes almost the same as working with smokeless ammo and for a couple or three hundred rounds can be loaded full speed on my big Hornady LNL AP.  The subs do tend to bog the press down with excess dust particles after a couple or three hundred rounds.  After reloading with the subs one must do a bit more machine cleanup than is required with smokeless as the powder residue will attract moisture and rust the machine overnight.  Do not ask how I know this! 

I actually use smokeless products for cleanup behind my sub loaded cartridge guns but do think they cleanup as easily as bp guns and this is quicker for me than smokeless gun cleanup!   

[PJ Hardtack]

Three members of our club elected to shoot 'Frontiersman' with cap & ball at a major match this summer and placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the category. We had so much fun, we've decided to do it again next year and drag along a few more in the category.

Yesterday, we had our 2nd annual club 'Frontiersman' match, only one shooter not using BP. Whatever it was, it left tracer-like trails of smoke all the way to the targets and sounded 'different'. He told us that once his supply ran out, he was going back to the black.

We shot one stage in a downpour, all of us suffering misfires, but oddly, we finished in the same order as the match mentioned above, our relative skill levels not being changed by the misfires.

I've yet to shoot 'Frontier Cartridge", but I've got the guns in both .45 Colt and 44-40 to do it. But cap & ball is just so damn much fun.

[Pulp]

Next time your buddy says that, show him this video, then asked for a revised opinion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ocbJrtIyY

I've probably posted this before, but it's always worth watching again.  Happened down in Alabama several years ago.  First stage of the match, rising sun, muggy humid morning, and very little breeze.  A feller called Lolo was the shooter.  The guy in the big sombrero early in the video is my brother, Sawyer.  Watch the spotters.  10 rifle, 10 pistol, 6 shotgun.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Pulp, thanks for posting that link!  It's a wonderful representation of the Glorious Fun that comes from shooting BP!  I'd never seen it before.  I shoot 99.9% NCOWS shoots and we tend to have (A) smaller crowds and (B) a larger percentage of BP shooters.  Our club, the Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society shoots in a very wooded area near the Yellowood State forest in south-central Indiana.  Our innaugural shoot was filmed by one of our founding members and we must have had nearly the same weather & sun conditions as in the film you linked to, only with more trees which caused/helped the smoke to hang around in a glorious white cloud even longer.

It was great fun!  I was shooting a Colt 2nd Gen, 1st Mod. Dragoon and was using a full charge of BP of nearly 50 grains of 3F, and my normal fully-loaded 45 Colt rifle  using around 37 grs. behind a 250 gr. BigLube PRS boolit.  There was a lot of smoke at the match and I'm proud to have added greatly to it.

(Yes - I wasted powder using a full charge in my Dragoon.  No - I don't really care - it was FUN!  And, surprisingly, it proved to be VERY accurate)

[john boy]

Pulp, I had a day like that.  After the 1st shot - it was nothing but a cloud in my face at the line.  For 5 scenarios I had 21 misses!

[brazosdave]

don't know if it's considered respectable or not, but I shoot Triple 7, mainly because that's what the gun store here in town stocks. I does make a bit of smoke, and a lot of sound, not as good as pure black powder I'm told, but probably less volatile. Anyhow, not knowing any better, it's what I shoot.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Brazos Dave, while many of us prefer to shoot authentic gunpowder, we also understand that in this 21st Century we live in, not every place can sell real BP because of storage laws.

Trip 7 is good stuff, 'tho a bit pricy at most places I find it.  But ... I live in a location where one of the best BP warehouses is less than 45 minutes away, so I don't even have to pay hazmat fees and shipping, besides what is figured into the selling price, naturally.  The last I bought was a couple summers ago and I shared a 50 lb. box at less than $11.00 per pound.  (I'm sure their prices have gone up since then, but it's still a good place to do business with.)  It's Deer Creek Powder, Inc.  They don't sell online but they take phone orders.  They are in Indiana and can be reached at: 765-525-6181.

Perhaps you could have some delivered to yer door, local laws allowing, of course.

[Pulp]

One time down at Ambush we were shooting through windows.  Wasn't much of a breeze, what there was was left to right.  Guess what, shooter started in the left window.  Goes to the center window, and there's all his smoke from the first window.  Then he goes to the third window and there's all his smoke from the first and second window.  The unloading table was just right of the stage.  It was soon abandoned, until the smoke cleared.  I've got that on film, if I can find it I'll post it.

[wildman1]

The last match I went to was Ten stages, I had 4 misses. Miss B stood behind me on one stage and remarked "ya can't see the targets after the first shot' how do ya hit em?" Memory. BP is a wonderful thing. We have our State SASS BP Championship this weekend and Miss B is goin Warthog. Gonna be a pile of smoke in them woods. WM