Need a black powder shots shell solution-- brass hulls are back ordered.

[Hopalong Strong]

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Several months ago I talked a bunch with Steel Horse Bailey. After going over the pros and cons of various options for shooting black powder shot shells this season we decided that 12 gauge brass hulls from Magtech were my best bet. I ordered 75 and got all the supplies I needed for the project.   I decided to pick one club and shoot all black powder there. Unfortunately the magtechs are back ordered and the delivery date keeps jumping back by leaps and bounds. The original delivery date was a month ago. The new one is a month from now.


The first match of the club I selected is next Sunday. I only need about 25 shells for the match. I do not have a shot shell loader but I do have empty aa plastic hulls. So here is where I need your thoughts...

Can I buy a box of black powder shells that are decent? (I have heard there are problems with some thatare available) if this is an option where should I look?

Can I load my own without a shot sell loader? If so how? What else would I need to buy? I know I would need primers and those new fangled plastic thingies in the middle of the shells.

Are there options I have not considered?

[joec]

I use this for loading brass shells with Black Powder or Pyrodex and works great. I also have one for 20 gage and they are simply getting more expensive since Lee discontinued them. All that is needed is the brass, shot, wads and Borden's glue. This is a pretty simple operation really.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-LEE-SHOT-SHELL-LOADER-12-GAUGE-WITH-INSTRUCTIONS-/120892903385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c25c74fd9

[Lefty Dude]

The old Lee Loader is excellent for loading BP & Smokeyless shells. You use a plastic mallet for some operations. I found my on E-Bay for less than $20.00. I have both a 12 ga. & a 16. Lee no longer makes this product, however there are many out there in cabinets & such.
I store mine in my Emergency stash box. The Lee loader fits in your pocket, a MEC 600 does not.

I feel your pain on the Brass shells. They are the way to go for BP. I have 150 and that is about the right number. I load in batches of 50 at a time. For a two Day Match with six stages per day 75 will be sufficient with some to spare. I had 100 last year, and increased the batch to 150 before Winter Range this past February.

I lucked out and found one box of 25 12 ga. Magtec's in Cabela's Bargin cave for $10.00.

We had Two 12 stages Matches back to back with -in- days of each other. Winter Range and it's prequel, Fire & Ice.

[Pettifogger]

Unless you are an extreme low volume loader the old Lee smack um with a hammer model will get old fast.  For a few dollars more you can buy a Load Load All (Less than $50.00 new) or a used MEC Junior.  Both will load plenty of BP shells a lot faster than the old single die Lee.

[Stu Kettle]

For just the few you need for the next shoot, you can load your AAs just like you were planning to load the brass ones.  Cut 'em to length & glue a overshot card on top.  I find that roughing up the top 1/4 inch or so of the inside with emory cloth help the glue stick

[Hopalong Strong]

Stu, I gave that a try and I now have two loaded shot shells. My only real question is will they extract after firing. Since my double has no extractors I am banking on them just falling out with a backward jerk of my arms.  Since I bought my wads for brass shells I have 11 gauge wads stuffed into a 12 gauge shell. This may have expanded them somewhat. What do you all think?

[Pettifogger]

Stu, I gave that a try and I now have two loaded shot shells. My only real question is will they extract after firing. Since my double has no extractors I am banking on them just falling out with a backward jerk of my arms.  Since I bought my wads for brass shells I have 11 gauge wads stuffed into a 12 gauge shell. This may have expanded them somewhat. What do you all think?

Take the barrels off the gun and drop in the shells.  If they don't go in with a "clink" they won't come out either.  Your double probably has extractors but not ejectors.

[Hopalong Strong]

You are right about the extractors. 

I'll go give the shells a test.

[Hopalong Strong]

One clicked and the other did not. I'll make more and see how they work out.

[Stu Kettle]

Is there a visible bulge at the wad?  I'd make it a point to test fire a few before the match.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Hoppy;  If you have any R-P RXPs give them a try.  R-P cases seem to slip out of my guns better than most others.

Cut the crimp area off the cases (whatever you try) This will save you the hassle of setting up for roll-crimping.
Size and reprime on a regular shot shell loader
Remove the case from the press & dump in a measure of FF powder.  I use a .30-06 case which drops appx. 58-60 grains.  A lighter load but sufficient for CAS.
Choose your wad column.  A W-W RED WAD, or the Claybuster clone will give enough room for a measure of shot (an ounce is enough) See the youtube clip by Bottom Dealing Mike aka "duelist 1954" on how to load without tools for a tip to make a measure from a cut-off shotshell case after weighing out your preferred shotload  (437.5 grains = 1 oz.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ4IBv0Bg9U

If you can't locate redwads cut the legs in the middle of a plastic wad and twist the stub ends in and interlock them to get a shorter cushion area.  After pouring in your measure of shot top it off with a overshot card and glue it in.  Yer done!  

If you can't wait for Circle-Fly to send you wads, bang some out with a 3/4 inch hollow punch. They will be plenty tight, about 11 gauge, and with the glue you will be OK.  I was a buckskinner in one of my former lives and had a 12 gauge wad punch a cut my  OS cards from waxed cardboard milk cartons. Another cheap trick is to go to your range after a law enforcement group has fired a lot of buckshot loads and clean up the OS cards just laying around, for free!
If you want to go with fiber wads, check out Circle-Fly.

http://www.circlefly.com/

You will need 1. over powder cards, 2. cushion wads, and 3. over shot cards.  For plastic hulls order 12 gauge wadding, for the MAGTECHS order 11 gauge.

Pardon me if I am telling you what you might already know.

[hellgate]

I na AA hull you could load 55grs volume BP, use a AA white wad, 7/8oz shot and an 8 fold crimp for a nice light load.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I na AA hull you could load 55grs volume BP, use a AA white wad, 7/8oz shot and an 8 fold crimp for a nice light load.

I have used that one often.  A good load!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Not to rain on your parade, but I completely agree with Pettifogger. Buy yourself a Lee loader or a used MEC Jr.

I shoot Black Powder with a bunch of Cowboys, have been doing it for quite some time now. I don't know anybody who uses brass shells. They are expensive, and very slow to load. Using conventional shells loaded on a modern press like the Lee or the MEC Jr, you will not be spending anywhere near as much time putting together a box of shells as you will gluing them together off a press. I loaded up 5 boxes of shells on my MEC Jr in an hour yesterday. That's kind of slow because I take each hull off the press to dip my powder in. Still, 5 boxes in one hour.......................

I use separate wads that I buy from Circle Fly. I put in 4.3CC of powder (the biggest dipper in the Lee set). Then I seat a Circle Fly 1/8" over powder card, a 1/2" cushion wad, drop 1 1/8 ounces of shot from the press, seat a .030 over shot card, then I crimp. It sounds like a lot of work, but I cranked out 5 boxes in an hour.

[Pony Racer]

DJ, a bunch of us in southern va love our brass hull shotgun shells.

Are we the fastest shooters - nope by no means are we - but we do have a few who do quite well for themselves against the competition.

They defintely are no faster than plastic shells/hulls but are just as easy to load for as the plastic hulls (arguably easier to load really).

I like them for their look and their ease in loading - since you really do not need a reloading machine of any kind - just simple hand tools and blocks of wood.

I have been shooting mostly brass hulls (not quite there yet with my 10 gauge yet) since about 2005-2006.

They are more expensive than they were when i started getting them.

PR

[Tascosa Joe]

Hopalong:
Unless you are doing a NCOWS Originals class IMO and experience you are better off with a AA hull loaded with a white or red wad per the receipts given above.  I have had a lot of extraction problems with the MAGTEC brass in both my 12 ga hammer guns (Remington and an LC Smith).  I have also had issues with making the brass shells pattern decently.   I know the last one is on me but....

Also the advice to get a used MEC Jr. is GOOD advice.

T-Joe

[Cookie]

@DJ - I completely agree with Pony Racer. People don't use brass for speed, they use them because they are COOL!! 
I get at least one comment per match from someone admiring those big brass cases.

I've NEVER EVER used anything but brass shells in a match, and I don't regret it one bit!! They are a TINY bit slower to load (I haven't put a roll crimp in them as some have.) and once I polished my chambers they shuck out just fine. (I'm shooting a hammered Rossi double, btw) Also, never had a pattern issue, or any problems with KDs.

And as far as loading them - I have a 20ga Lee Load-All II for my son's shells, and if you take de-priming / priming out of the equation I'm just as fast loading brass shells by hand. I just do em in batches.

Finally, yes they are expensive - but it's a one-time cost. In 2 years, I've lost 1 shell out of 150. And honestly, I could have survived with only 50. So, I bet my costs are actually lower than someone buying AA or STS shells over that same 2 year period.

[Hopalong Strong]

As a temporary measure I hand loaded 28 shells. It should get me through one match. I will see how I like shooting Black for a whole match.

[cpt dan blodgett]

I got a bunch of grey AAs seem to work pretty well, have heard others use the pink save the ta tas shells and they work ok as well

[Pony Racer]

TJ, the only thing i would want to know with your patterning issue would be what kind and sizes of wads are you using?

I have never had anyone shooting BP complain about patterns using brass shells.

Are you "squaring" your loads? That basically means equal amounts of powder and shot by weight.

PR

[Hopalong Strong]

I used red AA shells my son brought home for no apparent reason after shooting them at the last match. We have always left our shells for reloaders. Apparently he knew something I did not.

I am using the same dipper for shot and lead so my load will be square. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

TJ, Are you "squaring" your loads? That basically means equal amounts of powder and shot by weight.

PR

Equal volumes of powder & shot is a very much simplified use of the term "Square load".  It is a rule that more powder than shot exceeds the law of diminished returns.  From there, powder loads can be dropped as much as 30%.  As MV drops, patterns generally tighten. 

In English usage SQUARE LOAD means the the height of the shot column is the same dimension as the bore. It has been found that the best patterns happen at about that ratio. It translates to a commonly available light load of shot for the gauge. For 12 ga. it is about 1 1/16 oz., but 1 to 1 1/8 oz. are close enough.

[Tascosa Joe]

Pony:
I use an antique adjustable powder and shot measure.  I use the same setting for both powder and shot.  I think my problem came from my interpretation of Square Load, because I tried to use as much wad between the powder and shot, to equal the height of them.   I also use an antique hand cranked roll crimper on shortened plastic shells, which worked where the brass did not.   I am reasonably sure the excess wad was blowing holes in my pattern.
I have not shot a SASS match in 2 or 3 years, I have been shooting Working Cowboy in NCOWS which does not require a shotgun.
T-Joe

[Pony Racer]

TJ, roger that - thanks for the further info.

One thing I have seen is people buying same gauge size as the hull wads and over shot and over powder cards.

This will affect the seal and accuracy.  I don't think it is that bad if the wad lides in easily but if the overpowder or overshot cards fit loosely - the seal may not be good enough for that goodly amount of compression and seal.

But sounds like from your post that your self diagnosed wad issue is right on point.

I have a brass hull roll crimping tool that just needs kintetic energy from a mallet to do its job well - I find that I only need to do it maybe everything 4th firing of the hull.

PR

[Hopalong Strong]

Alright 28 shells loaded with the 1 ounce dipper for both powder and shot. My load there is as close to square as I can make it. Some of the shells were a bit "bulgy" after being loaded and did not drop in with a "click" as described above. I carefully polished the outside of the plastic cases with 320 grit paper and a buffing wheel. Now they all click. I am sure I have shortened the life of these AA hulls but I do not care since I will probably have the brass hulls a month from now for the next match. Just to be on the safe side I will pick up my son's AA hulls for the next few matches so I have a surplus.

Thanks for all the help.