Bushings, Hodgdon data and my scale don't jive

[Longshot Lil]

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Just got all the supplies to reload 12 ga shotshell on an MEC 600 jr Mark V.  Being the cautious type, we decided to weigh the powder that is being thrown by the bushing that was specified on the Hodgdon chart for the powder we are using.  The amount is WAY off...and I don't mean by a couple grains.  It is off by approximately 10 grains!  We're using the scale (502) that we have for our RCBS turret press, zeroing it out and setting the amount to weigh, which is 12.3 gr according to the loading data (found on Hodgdon's site).  I don't remember the exact number it was off, but it was in the 20's.  Before someone suggests that we didn't adjust the large black slider on the scale, we did.  The scale was definitely set to 12.3 grains.  My husband and I both checked it, and we zeroed it out and set it again to be sure.  I am afraid to load anything with the amount not being at least close.  Would someone kindly advise us?

Here's the info we're using: 
Shell:  Winchester AA
Powder:  WAA Lite
Primer:  Win 209
Wad:  Win WAA12
Powder weight:  12.3 gr.
Velocity:  980
Shot 1-1/8oz (7.5 shot)

This info is directly from the load charts on Hodgdon.com (searching 2-3/4" Winchester Compression formed - AA & Hs..., 12 ga,  Lead shot, and the first 1-1/8oz shot option)   The closest weight we can get on the powder is 12.2, which is a number 18 bushing which is what we installed in the press, so actually the powder should be a little light, not extremely heavy.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I can't say for sure about your specific issue, but you sure did the RIGHT thing by checking FIRST, rather than just using a charge chart.

Good on ya, Lil !

[Longshot Lil]

Ok, so after a good night's sleep, I went down to the basement to look things over again.  Hubby and I BOTH had an ID 10 T error (put that all together and read it).  Hadn't used the higher grains section of the scale before, and disovered that we had both read the little lines as a 10 grain increment, and they are only 5, so that answered the "way over" question.  BUT....

We still have a problem!     With the number 18 bushing in, and throwing several charges before throwing some to weigh, I weighed 4 of them.  11.6, 11.4, 11.4 and 11.5.  This is WAY light (should be 12.3), yet this is the bushing that is recommended on the Hodgdon site.  Oddly, the recommended bushing on MEC's site is the number 17, which is smaller (3 charges thrown were 11.2, 11.4 and 11.1). 

So what do we have to do here, go back to the store that is 15 miles away and buy the next several bushings up in size and just play to see what works?     Why is the info not accurate?

[Delmonico]

Set bushing vary by the way folks operate the charge bar.  Have you read the MEC manual from cover to cover and are you operating the charge bar in the same manner that they say?  Are you just playing with the charge bar or are you going through all the motions required to load a shell so the powder settles in the bushing the same as it would when loading?

[rickk]

You responded as I was typing to tell you the graduations were 5 grains, not 10.... that was my guess too.


The charts tend to err on the side of being too light in my experience. I guess that is better than being too heavy.  5% - 10 % too light is common. Powder does vary from lot to lot, which is why one needs a scale.

If it were me, for now I would  go with the slightly light charges and see how they work for you.  being 5% on the light side will hardly be noticeable.

Long term, it is nice to have more bushings. You can mail order them from Midway or BPI and avoid the drive.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Lil, different lots of powder can weigh differently.  The charts show an "average" weight.  However, I doubt there'd be THAT much difference as what you're finding.

Do what Del says - he's got a LOT of experience.  Different techniques and procedures CAN make a difference.  Consistency is very important, and that's why Del's suggestion has merit. 

The more you try things, the more you'll learn.  And reading up on your subject (as you have done) is excellent to start.  It would also benefit you to read other sources, but I'm sorry, I can't suggest any.  I can only offer general suggestions because the only shotshell loading is with all brass hulls, Black Powder, and my shells are all loaded one-at-a-time.

Good luck and have fun!

[Longshot Lil]

That's a good point Delmonico, I hadn't throught of that.  I am just checking powder throws.  We didn't want to go and load up a bunch of stuff that wasn't going to be accurate (aka safe).  This is all completely knew to us and we didn't want to end up blowing up a gun or getting something stuck in the barrel.  We just want to be sure of what we're doing and be safe!

[Longshot Lil]

Rickk,  I don't mind things being a little on the lighter side...but nearly a full grain is not something I want to play with! 

I am going back to the basement for a few minutes to see what I can come up with.  I'll deprime, then prime then throw the powder and see what happens.  The comment about going through the full procedure so the powder can settle a little makes good sense.

As far as having more bushings, we'll need some others when we get set up to reload 20's for me, BUT we don't yet know which ones we need, and I don't see us reloading several different types of loads for either of them.  I don't see that we really need loads that will knock us both on our butts!   

[Delmonico]

Keep the hopper at least 1/3 full also.

[Longshot Lil]

Ok, I looked at the manual again, and I am throwing the powder the way it shows in the pictures.

I just did a few that I deprimed and primed and then threw the powder...same powder throw as before...way too light.

For kicks, I changed out the bushing again to the #28 that came with the loader.  According to the MEC chart, that should throw 19.3 grains.  According to the chart on Hodgdon's site, it should be 18.3.  I threw 17.5 with it.  Soooo, someone's data isn't right or something else is wrong.

I don't think the hopper for the powder being a bit more full is going to add nearly a full grain to the amount it throws...I will try it, but I have my serious doubts.

I think we're just going to go get some larger bushings, somewhere between the 18 and 28 and see what works and make up our OWN chart for what each bushing throws for this powder.  I don't think we were nearly this frustrated when we first started learning to reload our pistol/rifle brass....  Didn't think this was going to be this much of a production!

[Delmonico]

I've never seen MEC bushings that far off and I used to work in a gun shop.

Are you sure your scale is right?  If you don't have check weights get some jacketed bullets and use those for a check.  They will be dang close.

[Jefro]

Howdy Lil, sounds like yer on the right track now. Delmonico and others bring up some good points. Powder can vary in weight from lot to lot, Mec bushings may be a little off because of this, most of mine do not match the Mec chart exactly. If the Mec chart says I need a #28, I'll buy a #27, #28, and #29. The powder despenser is gonna vary from round to round, yer not gonna find a bushing that throws 12.3 every time. Find a bushing that's close, a few tenths on the low end should be fine. You might need to pick up a #19 or #20 bushing to obtain the desired load (after you have verified your scale). Another thing that can improve consistancy is a baffle on the powder bottle. Also have a way to double check your scale, either with another scale, or a know calibration weight. Small electronic scales are very inexpensive now, I picked up a Hornady GS 1500 for $27 at Grafs, just wish I'd done it a loooooong time ago. Good Luck
Mec Powdre Baffle
Hornady GS 1500


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Longshot Lil]

I was able to "coerce" the 18 bushing into throwing a 12.3 a couple times by filling up the hopper more and by smacking the side of it a couple times before each throw.  Really?  I am NOT going to do that to load each shell!  We're going to try different bushings hopefully picked up tonight and just return what isn't needed.  What a pain in the butt.  Glad this isn't our first reloading effort because I don't know that I'd bother without already successfully loading our .38's.

If it was throwing heavy and I had the bottle filled up more, I would consider the baffle idea, but considering I only had about as much powder as the baffle would allow near the opening when it was throwing as light as it was, I don't think that's going to help.  Also, it was suggested that the bottle be at least 1/3 full...isn't that relative to the size of the bottle?

It's not a digital scale, so of course there will be the obvious variances, but if it weren't dang close, our .38 bullets would likely all be squibs, because we're loading just barely above the minimum weight at 3.6 gr (min is 3.5), so we have a little flexibility if a throw is a little light when we load those.  If the scale is nearly a full grain off (light) at 12.3, it stands to reason that it's going to be quite off doing 3.6 too.  We measured the weight of our bullets a couple times just to see, and the scale was pretty close to what the bullets were supposed to be.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.  I will post back after we've gotten some other bushings to try.  I want something that is going to give me a reasonably accurate throw each time without having to stand on my head and whistle Dixie while realoading!  LOL  I won't have the machine making me jump through hoops to make it do what it's supposed to do.  That kinda defeats the purpose.

[rickk]

Lil,

Being less than 10% on the light side is nothing to loose sleep over, especially for CAS shooting where distances are short.

Also, as maybe you are discovering already, as you drop a few charges the powder will pack in the hopper and the charge weights will go up. A few mild whacks on the hopper should settle most of it. Drop a few charges and this will settle a bit more.
It will not go up indefinitely. It will settle out.

A powder baffle may help reduce variation once it settles.  Keeping the hopper at least 1/3 fulll as you mentioned really will help a bit as well.

Some powders meter better than others. I have never used WAA Lite, so I have no experience with it.

Also, your press is brand new I assume? Running a few dozen charges thru the measuring mechanism is going to coat the previously clean measure surfaces with graphite from the powder and smooth things out a bit.

As far as the accuracy of the beam scale, it is more than likely more accurate than most reasonably priced digital scales. It also has more resolution than most reasonably priced digital scales. Most of the 0-100 gram scales that are all over ebay only have a resolution of .2 grains, so .2 grain fluctuation would not even be detectable on one of those there digital scales.

But again, +- a couple percent variation and being a few percent under target weight is going to be hard to notice in real world use.

Rick

Rick

[Longshot Lil]

Rick,

The machine was purchased as used, but it doesn't look like it was ever used to load anything.  Picked it up for a great price at a pawn shop 

It's now had at least a couple dozen throws through it, although each bushing hasn't had that many since I've been swapping them out trying to figure this all out.

It's just so frustrating when you're all exicited to finally get to actually LOAD some shells, and something isn't right that you have to figure out...kinda puts a damper on the excitement and the "fun", ya know?  Almost makes you want to forget about doing it at all.  If we weren't doing CAS, I'm sure we wouldn't be reloading shotshells.  But, like with the problems and questions that arose when we first started loading .38's, I'm sure this will all work itself out.  I'm trying to be patient!    

[rickk]

Lil,

I understand your frustration.  I set one up myself last year, so I vaguely remember the learning curve.

Fortunately, you will get it working soon I am sure.

The beauty of it all is that once you get it working, unless you have a reason to change something you never have to adjust it again. You just keep putting in hulls and wads and powder and primers and shot and out come loaded shotgun shells.  My 10 year old sometimes loads for me. It is that simple.

For me, for smokeless anyway, I use one hull style, one wad, one charge weight, one powder, one shot weight. The only thing I ever vary is the shot size. I never have to touch anything.

If I want to load BP, I remove the smokeless powder bottle and simply use the MEC to reprime and drop shot. I drop powder with a Lyman 55 BP measure, stuff fiber and cardboard wads in with a wooden dowel, and roll crimp on my drill press.

A suggestion that I got from someone, someplace on the internet, is to put a metal baking pan between the press and the loading bench. Shot seems to dribble out here and there for various reasons (like filling or swapping the shot bottle for instance). The pan will contain most of the mess.

Rick

[Longshot Lil]

Update:  We went and got a few more bushings and will return what we don't end up needing.  We put in the 20 and it was throwing quite high, so we went down to the 19.  BINGO!  It was throwing a little light and then started throwing right around the target number of 12.3...as we worked on a box of 25 shells, we weighed every throw for the first 10 or so.  Then feeling a little more confident, we weighed every other.  We started seeing the charges going a bit higher.  One has to wonder why?  If anything with the powder going down in the hopper bottle, it should be lighter shouldn't it?  We had the (short) bottle about 1/3 full to start.  So it looks like this is the bushing that we want to use, but I have a couple questions.

1)  Being more familiar (although still quite new) with pistol/rifle cartridge loading, those have a powder weight range to stay within.  We noticed that the shotshell reloading recipes only give one number.  So if it's ok to be a little off, there has to be a standard practice of "acceptability" for the powder charge from the base number given in the recipe.  Rick mentioned that it was ok to be about 10% light, but what about heavy which is what this bushing (19) is now throwing?  It's a lot closer to the ideal of 12.3 than the next bushing down (18).  What's my acceptable range for this?

2)  Is it common practice to store the powder in the hopper bottle (with the plug in of course)?  It's in the basement and when it gets a bit warmer, it will be dehumidified, and it's naturally cool down there already.  I don't want to ruin my powder, but if I don't have to keep emptying the hopper every time we do any loading, obviously that will speed things up.

You guys have no idea how much we appreciate the input and time you have given us.  It's great to have a place to run things buy others who are in the know.  Kudos to you all and we will be sure to pay it forward sometime!

[cpt dan blodgett]

I have never weighed a shotgun load, have always just used the powder and bushing specified.  I have never worried about the velocity being 1150, 1145 or 1155 FPS.  I could be wrong but sorta took it as an article of faith the load is reputable manuals using the specified components would be safe.  Did not really worry about 12.3 12.35 12.4 or 12.2 grains.

I live in AZ where it is super dry and generally leave the powder in the bottle.  If loading room was damp, expect I would empty and seal.  Generally always empty powder measures for pistol and rifle loading as I use various powders and dont want to try to remember what is in the hopper.

It does help to have same technique for all shells loaded, if you are going to bang the lever down hard do it for every shell, or do not bang at all.   Smooth and consistent is the best solution.

Shooting high power 600 yards, palma matches 800,900 and 1000 yards and also straight out 1000 yard matches one needs to be a whole lot persnickety when loading.

[Delmonico]

Do not leave the powder in the bottles, the nitroglycerin in the double based powder can cause reactions with some plastic bottles.  I'm guessing that the Super Lite is a double base since most if not all ball powders are.

[Longshot Lil]

Cpt Dan:  Being totally new to reloading, I prefer to err on the side of caution.  The 12 ga belonged to my husband's dad and was the first shotgun my husband ever shot...we don't want anything happening to it, or to us.  It is this caution that has led me to ask all the questions that I have.  If you don't weigh, that's fine and your choice, however I don't feel comfortable not weighing.  When doing our .38's, we weigh every 10th throw, just to be sure we're on target.  If it's a little light or a little heavy, we don't worry about it, but if something is way off, at least we know, and we have confidence in our loads.  Our problem right now is that they are weighing not just 1/10 one way or another...we're talking 3-4 tenths.  I'm not overly worried about the velocity, I'm more concerned about the loads being safe, both for the gun as well as for us and the people around us when we shoot.  Not being experienced we don't want to take chances, it's not worth it.

Delmonico:  Left the powder in the bottle last night, will be reloading again tonight to finish up the shells we have and we will empty the bottle per your suggestion.  Thank you for the info.

[rickk]

As the powder settles in the bottle it will get a bit more densely packed. Hence, a good reason to shoot for a nominal value that is a bit on the lighter side of what the book says.

.3-.4 grains when loading 12 grains isn't something you are going to notice. If you want to prove it to yourself, load a few off a scale a little under and a few a little over and see if you can tell them apart.

I leave mine in bottles on the press. I guess I am too busy and just want to be ready to load when I have a few minutes to load. I haven't had a problem over the course of many months. I'm not saying I won't ever have a problem, but I guess that you don't need to worry too much about a few days.

Rick

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Powder stored in the hopper overnight isn't gonna hurt.  How-some-ever, prolonged storage (a week or more) can turn some bottles into the consistency of Saran Wrap.  And while the bottles may not be hurt, they often get discolored ... which is probably the 1st step to ruination.  Then there's the possible moisture issues, depending on the surrounding humid-id-i-ty.

[Longshot Lil]

Funny you should mention the discoloration of the bottles and "ruination".  I noticed a crack in the powder bottle tonight as we were loading (remember we bought this as "used", even though it was still in new condition...it obviously sat for a long time in someone's basement or something).  I started to remove the bottle and it totally fell apart in my hands!  Fortunately, I didn't cut myself on the sharp plastic, and I didn't end up with powder everywhere.  I was able to tip the powder into a bowl and save it, and then put on gloves to remove the rest of the bottle.  We'll be picking up TWO new bottles when we go to the store next, the shot bottle is the same yellowed, brittle-looking plastic.  So the powder is stored in its original container now.  If we know it's going to be a two-nighter reloading fest, we'll leave the powder in the bottle overnight and empty it when we're done on the second day. 

AND...and update to the problem of consistent throws that are the proper weight.  WE DID IT!  I figured out what we needed to do!  Before each throw of powder, I tap the top of the bottle 5 times with the 3 middle fingers of my hand, about the intensity of "table drumming".  This packs the powder in just enough.  We were getting consistent throws right around the 12.3 mark with the recommended #18 bushing.  Some were a hair light or a hair heavy, but they were all where we felt totally comfortable.  I wrote down what we did so we don't end up forgetting (usually for me, if I write it down, I will remember it without having to refer to my notes).  I hope that helps another newbie to shotshell reloading.  I think this Win AA Lite powder is just that....LITE and needs a bit of encouragement to fill the bushing properly.  We ended our reloading session weighing only every other shell.  Next time we load, we'll weigh the first few, and then probably only every 5 or so until we gain more confidence in the process.

Thank you ever so much y'all for taking the time to share your knowledge and thoughts with us.  We're on our way to reloading a lot of shells now that the frustrating part is over!

Lil and Outrider

[rickk]

The bottles always get yellow with age and then they get brittle and then they break. I believe it is because they are UV sensitive. You certainly don't want to break a bottle full of shot.  New bottles, when mail ordered, are pretty cheap. It is nice to have multiple bottles (and the caps that go with them) of different sizes of shot and different powders so you don't have to mess around with dumping bottles.

I have multiple powder bottles but in retrospect that really hasn't been of much use since once I got things rolling I haven't used anything but one type of powder.  I have 30 different bushings as well, but after the first week of experimenting I haven't changed bushings.  I do have a different powder in another bottle for an experiment with sabotted slugs that I have planned, but it hasn't happened yet.

If you plan on a serious reloading session, be aware that you can get the bottles in different sizes. There is a larger bottle that can be used for shot. It roughly doubles the capacity of the shot hopper, which means more mileage between filling. Filling can be messy so I try to avoid doing it any more than I have to. Also, MEC makes a special funnel that goes over the shot bottle that significantly reduces the chance of a mess.

[Longshot Lil]

Well Rick...I've already had the pleasure of cleaning up shot!  I have found a fairly easy technique and it allows for the re-use of the shot.  I will post that somewhere so someone else can benefit from my experimentation.

I know the bottles come in two sizes.  We'll stick to the smaller ones.  Our reloading sessions I don't think are going to be monumental.  I mean, you have to have empty hulls for that, right?     I've not had any problem with loading shot into the bottle.  We just pour shot from the bag into a yogurt cup, and then I cup my hand around the top of the bottle and pinch the cup slightly so that it forms somewhat of a spout.  Then I slowly pour the shot in.  Not one hits the floor this way.  My experience with having to clean up shot came from forgetting that the cap was off the top when changing the bushing (while we were trying to find the right one), and forgetting to pull the handle down before throwing the charge bar.

I don't see us using more than one formula for loading.  The 12 is Outrider's gun, and he is going to want light loads all the time (CAS is the only thing that gun will be used for).  When we get the reloader for my 20, we'll get that set up for its load and go from there.