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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  BROW (Moderator: Delmonico)  |  Topic: a morning at the range 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: a morning at the range  (Read 3218 times)
Wagon Box Willy
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« on: March 23, 2012, 11:21:02 am »


Well,

I had a pretty disappointing morning at the range yesterday.  I brought my Win 1885 and 25 rounds each of 70gr KIK 2f loaded with MBW 45132 Postell and Saeco 645.

You might remember that my rifle was pretty well locked onto the target at 80 yards.  I stapled up targets at 100 and 200 yards.

Problem number 1, I'm still not comfortable with my tang sight adjustments.  It took me probably 10 rounds of Postells to get it acceptable and I could not get a good group.

In retrospect I probably should have pushed a wet patch or two through the barrel at this point but I didnt until about round 30.

Next I tried the Saeco....not even hitting the paper.  Not sure what was wrong, once I got finally got a couple hit hit the black I decided to move on to the 200yd target before I ran out of ammo.

problem number 2, I should have had a spotter.  I incremented the vernier about .125" which I was told would get me in the ballpark and shot a half dozen rounds, making little adjustments here and there and no paper.  I had no idea where I was and nobody around to help me see where I was going.  I probably missed the paper 20 times or more.

Next time I'm bringing a large piece of cardboard to tack up so I can see where my hits are.

I adjusted my stance to that I had a very solid hold.  Used my bench sticks and my elbows on the bench.  Still not much luck.  One would have thought I never shot before.  I was pretty bummed and my shoulder was sore.  I fired my last 2 shots at a very large gong at 200yrds and missed, packed my bags and went home.

My barrel cleaned up well and there was no leading so I cant blame the rifle.  The Postells seemed to work way better than the Saeco's though not anywhere close to what I was doing at 80yrds.

I only have 25 bullets left and MBW is out of Postells for a few weeks so I'll just lick my wounds and shoot in the back yard for a couple of weeks until I'm restocked and play in the backyard.

I have a PAST 1/2" shoulder pad coming, more bullets, 10lbs of KIK (today) and a shooting pad from Midway.  My next outing will use the prone sticks and pad so I have a stable hold and see what happens.

Willy
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2012, 12:50:31 pm »

WBW

With such a positive attitude, you'll bet it, I'm sure.

When I'm checking a zero, I start with a clean bore and fire 5 shot groups. I'm always interested in where that first shot goes from a clean, cold bore.
A pal who got me into the big bore buffler blasters is of the opinion that most 45-70 bullets don't shoot their best (stabilize) at 100 yds. Mike Venturino and others do their preliminary group testing at 200 yds for that reason. The heavier and longer the bullet, the more this seems to apply.

What's the rate of twist in your barrel? That could be a factor as well.

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wildman1
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2012, 08:38:24 am »

Proper bullet weight, proper velocity for the twist rate in yer barrel. Try "handloads.com" and see what ya come up with all of the factors involved. I have tried a lot of different loads for my 1884 Trapdoor. What their calculator for load came up with has worked the best for my rifle. Their ballistics calculator will tell ya what the drop is also. Its good enough that I was able ta put my first round shootin at 600 yds in the 8 ring.
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2012, 09:07:13 am »

Willy,

I sympathize with your day ...

But here is another spin on it ... The Big Guy put bad days in our lives so that there was a way of marking a really good day ... otherwise our lives would be like the color beige ... not much personality at all ..

I'm just sayin',

TTFN,
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2012, 01:00:03 pm »

Thanks.

While it would have been great to come home with the bullseyes blasted out of my targets but that was not to be.  This was a learning experience and I'm not discouraged in any way.  The only real concern I have in the back of my mind is that I am unable to hit the targets because I'm unable to acquire the skill.  I don't think that's the case but a good outing would have driven that thought out of my mind Smiley  Practice, Practice, Practice.

Plus it gave me an excuse to spend even more money Wink

Willy
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Ranch 13
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2012, 08:43:17 pm »

What were you doing for fouling control?
 Have you checked to make sure the mounting scews on your tang sight are tight. While you're at it check the front sight and make sure that it's tight in it's dovetail and the insert in the globe isn't loose fit and flopping around.
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wildman1
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 07:50:09 am »

I agree with Ranch 13 on the fouling control, it may take a bit of experimenting to see what works for your rifle. I use a blowtube for my Trapdoor. In AZ I have to use 2 long slow blows thru it to get enough moisture in the barrel, 3 if its a real dry day. WM
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 11:36:10 am »

Ranch 13,

Sights were tight, I even changed my insert once during the day so I know the front sight was fine.

I used my blow tube after each round.  Was pretty damp and overcast so the air was humid and warm.  I think around round 30 or so I pushed one of my wet arsenal patches through it.  That may have helped but by that time I think I was just throwing good money after bad and wasting my lead.

Willy
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Trailrider
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 01:55:55 pm »

One thing you need to do when going from close to far is know the trajectory of your bullet ahead of time. You need to know a few things before you can use a trajectory program: 1) know the muzzle velocity of the bullet...need a chronograph, not just the published ballistics shown in a manual; 2) determine the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, which is based on the relative sectional density and the shape of the bullet. There used to be a packet published by du Pont, years ago, that had a bullet profile chart from which you could find the coefficient of shape, though mine will give you only a rought approximate. Sectional density is the weight in pounds divided by the square of the diameter; Just doing some rough calculations, I'd guess your bullet has a ballistic coefficient of maybe .30+ or -.  Probably be good enough to work the trajectory calculations.

Find a ballistics program and you should be able to calculate the trajectory, NOT just the drop. You can adjust from your 80 yd out to whatever you want. It should at least get you on the paper.  I'd also get a large sheet of cardboard or butcher paper and put up a contrasting piece of paper to use as an aiming point.
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Ranch 13
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2012, 02:52:37 pm »

Willy the stars and moon must of just been out of whack that day.
 We just back in from a practice session and the wife was shooting her hiwall and the saeco (leftover ammo from last year), and still shooting 1-2 moa from 200-650 yds.. 70 grs kik 2f, .030 fiber wad,remington nickle cases primed with either the cci magnum pistol primer, or the Federal magnum rifle match primers.
 Bullets lubed with Bullshops Nasa lube. The federal's do seem to dry the fouling out much quicker than the pistol primers, but we got 2K of them last year in prizes,,,so we're busy trying to use them up... about half gone now...
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Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2012, 04:12:07 pm »

Ranch 13,

Glad you guys had a good day.  I use Winchester Large Pistol Primers that are seated through copy paper.  My Chrony had the Postells at 1182 and the Saeco's at 1186.

To respond to Trailrider I did calculate the ballistics on the Postell.  It has a BC of .402 and I had a starting point to come up of about 13.4 MOA so I had done my homework.

Hopefully my next outing will be better Smiley

Willy
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wildman1
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 07:34:46 am »

Willy what is your rate of twist? WM
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 07:51:55 am »

1:18 Badger barrel
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wildman1
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 07:57:26 am »

Thank. Reason I asked, my TD does not like anything over about 1160 fps,  you might be able to get your velocity up a little more with that rate of twist. WM
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 08:15:04 am »

WM, so what happens to a bullet if the velocity is too fast.  Does it tumble or what...just curious.

Willy
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2012, 09:37:07 am »

The faster the velocity, the faster the rotation of the bullet. Therefore it should be more stable.  There are several factors to account for.  One is drift.  In the transition zone at about the speed of sound things can get a bit erratic. Secondly, higher velocity leads to higher recoil.  At this point the only factor in favour of speeding things up is if stability is not quite there and more velocity would help.

Try it.  You might like it!

Only alter one thing at a time.
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 07:10:51 am »

What Sir Charles said. You can get erratic bullet flight if you get to much velocity. I did that with my first 45/70 (A Buffalo Classic), put the bullets thru the target sideways at 50 yds. The velocity was around 1400 fps 405 g bullet. WM
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 10:02:56 am »

It has always puzzled me why some insist on turning a 45-70 into a sub-.458 Winchester. A pal with a scoped Ruger #3 carbine used to shoot 56 grs of 3031 with 500 gr jacketed bullets. Why? Because the book said he could. Recoil was brutal, to say the least.

At the same time, I was shooting 36 grs of 3031 with a 420 gr cast bullet from my Browning '86 rifle and took two moose with that load. If I needed more, you couldn't prove it by the moose. Bigger is not necessarily better.

I have no idea what the velocity is of any of my reloads. I recently sold my chronograph as it's only been out of the box twice in the last 12 years - once to prove it worked, second time to prove that the loading manuals and ammo companies lie.
I've never understood the obsession with velocity, beyond curiosity. Playing with buffalo rifles and using a gadget like a chronograph just doesn't add up - for me.

By the time I pack up ammo, guns, cleaning gear, spotting scope, targets, tape, stapler, shooting glasses, etc. I feel like I'm running away from home. Some of this gets moved from one shooting bag to another, depending upon what I'm shooting, and some items get forgotten in the shuffle. Packing and setting up a chrono is just one more thing I can do without.

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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 10:57:00 am »

The fuss about the velocity of Willy's loads is muchado about nothing. I've seen both loads, hold 2 moa at 1000 yds, and less at 200.
Chrono's do serve a purpose if you're shooting longrange competitions. But banging on stuff out to a couple hunred yards they probably don't mean much.
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 05:47:56 pm »

My hat's off to those who can hold and read the wind out to 1000 yds!

I'm just "... banging on stuff out to a couple hundred yards ...", using my BPCRs for their original purpose - dropping game in their tracks.
Most of the guys I know who are chrono-obsessed are hunters. I only know one man who shoots past 500 yards and he has to drive for two hours to get to a 1000 yard range. That's dedication.

I watched someone spend a couple of hours working with a chrono and three .270 loads. When he was done, I asked which load he was going to hunt with. Answer : "The fastest one.". Not the most accurate! Like any animal would know the difference if a load was 75-100 fps faster.

Oh well, he was happy .... ;>)
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I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 08:47:10 pm »

Willy, here's a tip when you can't get on target - have no spotter - no trajectory table from your 100yd baseline setting ...set a orange clay bird in the middle of the berm next to the 200 or 300yd target bullseye.  If you don't bust the bird to pieces with 1st shot, measure the vertical & horizontal distance where the bullet hole is in the berm to the clay bird.

1 MOA @ 100yds = 1.047 inches, rounded - 1"
1 MOA @ 200yds = 2"
1 MOA @ 300ys = 3"  and so on

So let's say, the bullet hit the berm 16" high and 4" to the right of the bird using a tape measure.  Means FROM YOUR 100yd BASE LINE SETTING, crank the vernier down 8 MOA and windage 2 MOA to the left.  Shoot again and the bird should be history.  Then depending whether you shoot a 6 o'clock hold or center bullseye - shot the target.  If you don't have a 10 ring hit, then make the minor MOA adjustments to shoot bullseyes - again using a ruler to measure inches.  Should take no more than 3 to 5 rounds to be on the bullseye or in the 10 ring.  Okie Dookie?

PS:  If you don't hit the berm, like on the ground, do a vertical estimate from the hit on the ground to the bird.  If you are over the berm, well use SWAG MOA adjustments down to get close to the bird

So, now let's say you are a 20x shooter and want to develop a trajectory table without a chronograph.  Read this thread for close approximations of velocityby different variables ... http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18931 and then download the calculator
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 09:01:08 pm »

Quote
My hat's off to those who can hold and read the wind out to 1000 yds!
PJ, don't forget to be able to read mirage also.  It's great hitting the 10 ring at 1000yds with a steady wind and mirage. Center hits can make a warm feeling running down ones leg! Grin   But when both are switching, it's either total frustration or total elation!

Also, let's say all is going fine and then cloud cover moves in and your POI's go in the toilet.  Another frustrating factor shooting long range at 600 to 1000yds with large calibers.  Shooting 38 & 32 calibers, I've had my score go to pot with a change from sun to clouds even at 200 yds
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PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 09:17:46 pm »

JB

I haven't shot at 900 yds since leaving the Army. I well remember 'mirage' as a problem along with wind doping.

In a 50-100-150-200 yd postal shoot with other '63 Sharps shooters, I had the problem of changing light conditions when shooting - bright then cloudy. Went on all day. Definitely had an effect on the sight picture.

BTW - we were all surprised by the accuracy we got from our '63s. Not as good as with a brass cartridge rifle, but certainly adequate for paper cartridge technology. You don't want anyone shooting at you with a '63 from 200 yards!
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 07:52:15 am »

A chronograph is a tool, like a powder measure. I used the chrono after I tried the loads in my BC, to help me figure out what caused the funny lookin holes in the target. It was my first time loading and shootin the BC. By the way, those loads were not max for that rifle according to the loading manual. WM
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WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2012, 02:06:38 pm »

Thanks all for the interesting replies, I've been away on a biz trip and didn't have much time to log on.

Willy
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