Author Topic: Coach Guns  (Read 14332 times)

Offline Okefinokee Outlaw

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Coach Guns
« on: March 06, 2012, 08:46:11 AM »
I saw a post in another CAS topic stating that the existence of 20" barrelled shotguns has not been documented.  This would be good news, since I would have a good reason to purchase another shotgun.

Might anyone have any info on this?

Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 09:10:41 AM »
I dont have any info on the availability of 20" guns, but the bulk of the shotguns made in the US or Imported from England, Belgium, and France were 30 or 32".    When you go to your local gun show or at least around the North Texas area you very seldom see a pre 1900 shotgun with a short barrel.  I would guess the ratio to be 1 short gun to ever 250 to 300 long guns.  I would venture a guess that 99% of the short barrel guns I have seen were cut off at later date as most I have seen have no choke. 
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Offline Cash Creek

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 09:22:39 AM »
Stoeger Coach Guns come in 20 inch barrel...CC

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-coach-guns.php
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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #3 on: Today at 12:35:56 AM »

Offline Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 09:38:36 AM »
Cash,  I know they're available (I have 2), but if not historically accurate, I will replace with longer barrelled guns.

Offline Books OToole

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 09:41:15 AM »
Don't chuck you short barrelled doubles yet.  There is documentation out there.  I will follow-up later when I have my library at hand.

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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 09:47:35 AM »
I saw a post in another CAS topic stating that the existence of 20" barrelled shotguns has not been documented.  This would be good news, since I would have a good reason to purchase another shotgun.

Might anyone have any info on this?

Yeah!  Camille Eonich seems to identify me with NCOWS, which is flattering.  She says she likes her sawdoff '97 but doesn't know what the historians at NCOWS  (National Congress of Old Whiskey Sippers ???) would say about the PC of barkeeps guns?

I am an Alone Ranger and have never attended, or competed at, an NCOWS match.  I'm not aware of any rule prohibbiting them but what is the practise?  Of course, the majority don't use shotties at all in the Working Cowboy class.
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Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 12:32:00 PM »
I saw a post in another CAS topic stating that the existence of 20" barrelled shotguns has not been documented.  This would be good news, since I would have a good reason to purchase another shotgun.

Might anyone have any info on this?

This is good "hard" evidence:

RL Wilson  "The Book of Colt Firearms, 3rd Ed."  pp.483-490.   The 1878 Hammered Colt SxS was produced in factory lengths from 18" to 34".   The 1883 Hammerless Colt SxS was offered in 18" to 36" barrel lengths.  Wilson does note that 28", 30", and 32" were the standard lengths.

Madis  "The Winchester Book".  He notes the Winchester 1887 and 1897 were produced in 20" barrel lengths as "Guard" or "Riot" guns.  The '97 was also offered (post 1900) in 20" "Trench" variation with the bayonet lug.

So there is documentation, but to back up Tascosa's writing I have a handful of pre-1900 hardware catalogs.  Browsing through two  (N. Curry & Bro. San Francisco, 1884 and George W. Harder's, Williamsport, PA, 1890) shows that ALL of the sporting SxS shotguns (Ithaca, Parker, Remington, etc...) were only offered by these retailers to the public in 28", 30" or 32" models.  This tells us that the "shorties" were not common and factory special orders.
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Offline RickB

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 01:17:24 PM »
I have a SxS that has short barrels and dates from the 1880s period.  It's an old mule eard external hammer coach gun. I still shoot it but only use dove or light loads due to it's age. I'll post some pics when I get the chance. 
Someone could have bobbed the barrels but if they did it had to be a long time ago.
Ride Safe and Shoot Straight.
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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 01:26:00 PM »
I did not mean to say there weren't any 20" or shorter, just that the long barrels are much more common.  I am sort of a collector of American Double Guns and I have several from 3 of the 5 big American makers.  30" seems to be the most common.  Followed by 28 then 32.  All other barrel lengths were special order.   I have seen several commercial '97 Winchesters over the years with 20" barrels from the factory.  All were marked Cyl.   9 times out of 10 on a short '97 if it says anything but Cyl it has been cut off.
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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 02:23:57 PM »
I have seen a 20 inch coach gun that was carried by the shotgun guard on the Deadwood stage coach. I don't know who bought the gun, but it had a letter with it that told where it came from and where it was used. As today shotgun barrels are cut down, do you not think they were cut down also in the 1800's. If the ideal is to call 20 inch coach guns incorrect, then that is a pretty poor ideal. After all they are called coach guns. Tj  :o  ::)
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Offline RickB

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 07:38:21 PM »
I haven't taken the time or effort to find out the brand of this shotgun but it is a solid gun and shoots well. It's a 12 guage and accurate as can be. I'm currently using a new model SxS with exposed hammers in 20 guage that can take the modern loads.

I've put this old timer in my safe to keep in usable condition. I only paid $150 for it a few years ago and have been happy with it since that day.

Ride Safe and Shoot Straight.
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Offline Dusty Tagalon

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 08:19:22 PM »
I like my Stoger, too bad they don't make a hammered.
Expensive, but I am very happy with my CZ-Hammered, (Huglu).

Brian

Offline Steel Horse Bailey

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 10:09:16 PM »
I'm in agreement with Tacosy Joseph.  While the longer barrels were much more common, the shorties DO exist.  Matter of fact, Pedersoli has just released a percussion hammer that has VERY short barrels.  10" or so.  It is aimed toward the Confederate Cavalry folks, because they were not uncommonly found used there.  They are WAAAAAAY cool looking guns, and because of their percussion status, they don't run afoul of BATF.

For example:
http://www.cabelas.com/black-powder-davide-pedersoli-20-gauge-double-barrel-coach-shotgun.shtml

Long barreled shoot-guns weren't the ONLY ones available.
 ;D
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Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 12:43:20 PM »

I am an Alone Ranger and have never attended, or competed at, an NCOWS match.  

We need to change that Sir Charles. ;)

You are welcome to join us in a match down in Texas anytime.  I think you'd enjoy the experience.  October is our Southwest Regional.  (www.bergersharpshooters.com)

If you get yourself down here, I'll supply the guns, leather, and ammo.  I don't share hats, so you'll need your own. ;D


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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 01:34:42 PM »
I have seen a 20 inch coach gun that was carried by the shotgun guard on the Deadwood stage coach. I don't know who bought the gun, but it had a letter with it that told where it came from and where it was used. As today shotgun barrels are cut down, do you not think they were cut down also in the 1800's. If the ideal is to call 20 inch coach guns incorrect, then that is a pretty poor ideal. After all they are called coach guns. Tj  :o  ::)
T-J you are jumping the gun here.  Nobody is trying to outlaw anything, we are just having a discusssion.  I  also think O/O is looking for an excuse to buy a new shotgun and blame it on us.  LOL 
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Offline Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 02:22:58 PM »
That is true T/J.  I really didn't mean to start an argument.  But I still think I need one.  I'll think of another reason.  I'd really like an original, but the prices I'm seeing are a bit high for me.

Offline Books OToole

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 02:25:53 PM »
Other than complying with the Federal Firearms Act of 1934, NCOWS has no restrictions on barrel lengths.


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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 02:29:39 PM »
Joe, Sometimes I have the ability to do that. Tj
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Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »
That is true T/J.   But I still think I need one.  I'll think of another reason.  I'd really like an original, but the prices I'm seeing are a bit high for me.

Okefinokee Outlaw,

I had the itch last fall to carry a long barreled double at NCOWS matches.  I don't want to destroy an original, so I picked up this:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40369.0.html

I got it from 3 B Shooting Supply.  His price on these is amazingly low.  I think he has a few more in stock.


I really enjoy shooting it.


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Offline James Hunt

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Re: Coach Guns
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 03:30:53 PM »
Don't tell Black Bart they were neither there nor used:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/angry_idol/6041281631/

I find my Moore & Co. just the ticket when confronted by those pesky Pinkertons:

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