Now that I have gone black I will never go back!

[Hopalong Strong]

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I've been shooting black powder in my large caliber military rifles for several years now (577, 577-450, 45/70, 50/70, etc) but I've never shot it in a pistol. I had been loading 777 in .45 Colt for one of my Vaqueros but this looke like it would be more fun.  Consequently I've been toying with shootin' black in one of my revolvers for a while now. After much thought, reading here on his forum, and discussion I have selected the revolver Colt 1860 Richards Conversion (R&D did the work) and bought an appropriate mold (Mav Dutchman) for my .44 colt cartridges. I spoke at length with Steel Horse Bailey and he gave me all the advice I needed. I loaded them up and shot them last weeknd. I have never had so much fun shooting! My 13 year old son also loved it. This was SO MUCH FUN! The cleanup with Moose Milk was super easy as well. I am hooked. Now I am thinking about shootin' black in my 1872 open tops and my 1866 yellowboy all in 44 SPL. I guess I will have to shoot a bunch of rounds to make some empty cases!

Thanks for all the help.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Hopalong,

Welcome to the dark side!  As you're finding out, the problems loading and cleaning up after black are much overblown.  You will become friends with the little brown truck driver delivering cases of the One True Powder to your door!

[Grapeshot]

Yes.  Welcome to the darkside.  I to went through the worries of shooting BP in my revolvers, but took the plunge when I noticed that I cleaned up quicker in my Shotgun and rifle than I did with smokeless.  Now it's BOOM..CLANG more often than not.


Corrected post.  My Bad!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I'm all smiles!  I'm glad I could help, Hoppy Doug.

Shooting BP through old guns is more fun than should be allowed!  Like Grapeshot, I too like BOOBs ... and CLANGs.   
 

You can't go wrong with BP loading ... it's so simple, and as BP Burn mentioned, the "problems" and "issues" of cleaning are waaaaay overblown.  I can get my BP guns clean in less than one quarter of the time it used to take me to clean up after a good session of smokeyless shooting.  The only bad thing is that BP is messy and stinky.  But it's easier.  Once you get the hang of things, it all goes quickly.  It takes me about 7 or 8 minutes each to clean my shotgun and my Sharps, too.  Any single-shot (or similar) weapon is a breeze to clean!  There are few moving parts and hardly any little nooks & crannies inside actions for residue to get into and cleaning a barrel is easy as pie.  I've been known to take the barrel of my shotgun to the kitchen sink and simply run hot water 'through it with the sprayer.  It's fun to watch all that residue nastiness rinse down the drain and be done with it in a matter of seconds.  I always keep a can of WD40 around so it can do its Water-Displacement job.  For THAT, WD is hard to beat!

For those who don't know, Hopalong has also introduced his young Son into the joys of charcoal burnin' guns.  Nothing but good can happen from a Father-Son BP team!
..... Except to the wallet, perhaps!

 

[Fairshake]

Steel Horse, You are correct on the fact that WD40 displaces water but it's one of the worse for protecting your guns.
Take a look at EEZOX. I have used it for years and became a true believer after seeing John Boys test on the Jersey Shore which was posted on many forums.
Ask anyone who has became a user and see what they say about it. I put it on all my guns after the cleanup with Moosemilk. It protects against finger prints and all.
A darksiders must have product. Later David

[Paladin UK]

WD40....

I guess its gotta be down to what pleases yerownself!!
FWIW... I use WD40 a lot as well as Moosemilk `n Ballistol

I always give ALL my smokeploes a good blast of WD40 before I leave the range and by the time its `cleanup` usually 2-3 hrs later the WD has really done its work!!

Like I said each to their own!! I have done it this way for over 15 yrs now and got no reason ta change!!

Paladin (What lurvs the Holy Black) UK

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Steel Horse, You are correct on the fact that WD40 displaces water but it's one of the worse for protecting your guns.
Take a look at EEZOX. I have used it for years and became a true believer after seeing John Boys test on the Jersey Shore which was posted on many forums.
Ask anyone who has became a user and see what they say about it. I put it on all my guns after the cleanup with Moosemilk. It protects against finger prints and all.
A darksiders must have product. Later David

Howdy, David

I think you didn't catch what I was referring to or I didn't explain well enough.  Hoppy, by way of talking to me on the phone KNOWS that I feel WD is simply a displacing oil and nothin' more.  It is NOT a good protector or lube.  As is Ballistol.  They are better than nothing, but for real lubrication and preserving, Eezox, BreakFree, Rem Oil, TW25, Lucas, and others are much better. 

The way my British pard, Paladin UK uses it and Ballistol is fine, but I think most of us know that you should use good lubes and preservation oils for lubing & preserving and leave the thin oils, to do their cleaning and water displacing qualities best where they work best.  I use a lot of Moosemilk too, PUK (mine is made heavy on the Ballistol at around 6 or 7 to 1 - water to oil,) but it is NOT my preferred lube.  It DOES clean and neutralize the residue salts from BP firing, thanks to the water.  And, like WD, it will impart immediate oil to protect the bare steel until a better oil is applied before storage and/or the next shooting session

Thanks Fairshake for allowing me to clarify.  You are absolutely correct.  Eezox will do what WD does PLUS do a much better job at protecting.  I still use the WD because it's so much cheaper, but for good lubing I have over a gallon of Breakfree.  PLUS, I have and use Rem Oil, as well as Eezox and other superior products.  I try to use what's best for its specific qualities.  No ONE product does everything.  They all have their uses.

[Blackpowder Burn]

Steelhorse,

I have to take exception to one comment you made.....black powder is NOT stinky!    There's nothing like the smell of sulfur in the morning! 

If you want to talk about "stinky" - have you ever noticed that folks that shoot Trail Boss leave a very distinctive "bad odor" in the air when they shoot? 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

BP Burner, one man's stink is another's perfume!  LoL!

I think Ballistol stinks, too - but I know of folks who don't think so.  If I remember kee-rektly, my good pard Sir Charles thinks that Hoppes #9 stinks and smells worse than Ballistol.  I like the smell of Hoppes, and Outers, too.  I don't like chicken, either but plenty of folks love it.  I love Brussels sprouts, but many don't .  And ... well - you get my point!


As to the Trail Boss, I can't say.  I've not been around someone who uses it so that I could give it a sniff, so I don't know WHAT it smells like.


You are right.  BP doesn't really stink, IMHO.  It's just that since most folks "think" BP stinks, I said it that way.  And when BP residue meets some cleaning solutions, the distinct fragrance of sulfur is sometimes noticeable - and many don't like it!

 

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Hopalong Strong welcome to the land of soot.  Now when you start using the black for seasoning and making tea, you will know you is hooked. 

[wildman1]

Hopalong Strong welcome to the land of soot.  Now when you start using the black for seasoning and making tea, you will know you is hooked. 

Or ya save all yer cleanin patches in a little trash bag in yer truck an then take yer wife fer supper after the truck has set in the sun fer a couple hours.  WM 

[Johnny McCrae]

Hopalong and I shoot together at a local SASS Club. He is quite serious about his shooting. It's fun watching him shoot his original Trapdoors. I'm sorry I missed watching him shoot an original Martini Henry.

He was fortunate to get help from one of the best... Steel Horse.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thank you very glad!

I have great friends, eh?!

[Hopalong Strong]

I've now loaded up 100 rounds of 44 spl with black as well. That way I can shoot them from my rifle as well as pistol. Now I need to learn to load black shotgun shells. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Loading shot shells with BP?

Yes, we do that!  look up to The Dark Arts;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9733.0.html

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I've now loaded up 100 rounds of 44 spl with black as well. That way I can shoot them from my rifle as well as pistol. Now I need to learn to load black shotgun shells. 

You can follow Sir Chas.' excellent advice ... or call me again.

 

[Cemetery]

I crossed over to the Darkside almost 3 years ago.

Never looked back.

I won't purchase gunz that can't handle real black, or at least subs in cal's smaller than .38.  Hmmmm.........maybe 4f for those.....

Even my AR can handle Triple Seven.

 

[Fairshake]

Come on now Cemetery, Saying the word triple 7 while discussing black powder is not using the BP code of speech in the correct context.
Hopalong, The loading of BP shotgun hulls is so easy that you can do it while standing on your head, well maybe we should sit or stand for at least the first three times anyway.
You may use the very simplest of tools such as the old Lee Kits which are by hand or your current shotshell loader.
There are many fine articles written on the net but if you have a close by buddy use him. Use moderate loads of BP and not the full house hunting loads you read about.
For the 12 ga and SASS, I use loads in the range of 60-65 grains of 2F. Buy the cheapest powder you can for this as the top grades are not needed. I can buy Diamondback from the Back Creek Shop in Winchester Va. for $10 a pound and it works fine.
If you have hulls that were fired in your gun then you are in good shape but if they are purchased once fired then you will need to size the bases. Use only low brass so that they will shuck from your gun, the high brass will stick in SXS guns .
I have a Mec Sizemaster that sizes all my hulls and deprimes in the first stage.
I choose to use a roll crimp but will not go into that as it requires some extra equipment and knowledge.
The next stage is to add the powder and I do that via none of my BP measures and not the press. I then go back to the press and add my shot cup and shot charge. then to the crimp stage and you are done. This way with the plastic wad is easy and fast. It also cleans up with Windex/Vinegar very fast. The melted shotcup will look like a shed snake skin when it comes out the barrel.
 You may also load with the old way using cards but if not done correctly you will have what is called donut holes in the very center of your pattern. I missed a KD from 10 yards before learning how to stack and cut cards and filler wads.
With the shotcup there is no problem.
As you can see it's very simple and cleans up fast. After the Windex/vinegar I always run Moosemilk down the barrels in a 7-1 mix. 2 oz of Ballistol to 14 oz of water for a 7-1 mix ratio. Later David

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I agree with Fairshake, especially on using 60-65 grains of FFg; - and one ounce of shot is usually enough.

One suggestion I would add is to select a plastic wad of the same style you are used to but with a shorter cushion portion to adjust the load column height for a good crimp.  For example if I use 60gr FFg and 1 oz, shot, I try an AA WW 114 wad (The standard wad for a regular field load in smokeless)  There are equivalent wad choices from other makers. By now I have a lot of different wads laying around so I can use the standard experimental process of "cut-and-try".

After you get a few rounds down range and are comfortable with the process using plastic do some study on card & fibre wads and give it a try.  Its hard to screw-up that badly.  Don't load a bunch until you have tested a few sample loads.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy again, Hoppy.

More good info here.  Obviously, Sir Chas. and Fairshake are well acquainted with plastic shotshell loading.  We talked of brass shells only.  There are few differences, but the plastic wad it the main difference and this fact brings me to this post.  Fairshake made a comment about "donut" holes in the pattern.  This is over-simplified, but true.  What I forgot to mention when we talked was the difference in shotguns which will help you decide whether 'tis better to use brass or the spent plastic shotshells easily found on most shooting ranges in the trash piles.  I have never reloaded plastic hulls, so I'll leave that to others.  Thing is, what type of forcing cones are in your guns?  Older guns (pre 1980s or so) tend to have short forcing cones.  Newer guns tend to have longer ones because many feel a lessening of felt recoil with the longer cones.  Some folks, like me, can't tell a difference.  My Stoeger SxS (made around 2000) had longer cones - and did well with my shotshell loads, but my current and favorite, the Tula was made in the 1980s or earlier and has very shot forcing cones.  I don't know how to date Russian guns, but it does have "Made in  the USSR" on the barrel, so I assume it was made before Nov. 1989.

OK - what's the diff?  The plastic will perform much better in the long-cones guns and the short-cones guns favor the card wads, tho plastic shotcup wads will work well with either type.  If you have multiple style guns, plastic shotshells may be the better option.  It's the way the card wad works ... the plastic will expand and seal in the barrel down the loooonger cone area, but not the wad - it needs to have very little "jump" or the same as freebore (I'd guess) in a rifled barrel or it loses the seal and allows gas & the shot to help make the dreaded "donuit" which also will happen, like I mentioned if you use too much powder for the shot ratio.  That's what the "square load" alludes to, 'tho a TRUE square load is not as simple as the same volume of shot to powder, but I don't know the exact & precise difference, so I'll only use the term "square load" in its most generally accepted meaning.

Capishe?  Good!  Like FS mentioned, it'd be better to stand or sit your first couple times loading shotshells, but after that you CAN do it standing on yer head because it's so easy!  
 

Don't forget to compress your powder.  That often gets overlooked when some give directions for handloading shotshells.  It won't blow up anything if you forget, but your loads will be more efficient if you compress the powder.  The trick is consistency.  And consistently doing the RIGHT things is the name of the game when reloading, shooting, and many other endeavors!

I look forward to our next call.

Jeff - SHB

PS - If you decide to use plastic hulls, let me know before we do our "meet" and I'll pass on a couple hundred plastic, once-fired hulls I've collected.  Plastic, unlike brass, will only stand one or few reloads with BP before melting beyond usefulness.  I've seen plastic hulls with holes melted in the sides and obviously, those are no longer re-loadable.  With any powder, unless it's an "end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it" situation.  (With thanks to R.E.M.)
  
I'm pretty sure that most or ALL of the plastic hulls I've saved, however are the high-brass type, so you'd have to get them re-sized somehow.  Once, anyway.  I forgot whether you said if you have a shotshell loader or not (I assume not) so FS's advice needs to be heeded.

[pony express]

Hopalong, if you don't already load shotshells, I recommend starting out with a Lee Loadall, they're cheap and work fine if you don't need to make 100's of rounds. They also include a sizer die to resize the bases.

[Hopalong Strong]

Hopalong, if you don't already load shotshells, I recommend starting out with a Lee Loadall, they're cheap and work fine if you don't need to make 100's of rounds. They also include a sizer die to resize the bases.

  I was seriously considering that. I will continue to purchase shot shells for most of my shooting but buying Black powder shot shells is not really an option.

Steel Horse Bailey talked me through the whole process of loading them up wiht brass cases. However when I looked at the cost of the brass cases and compared it to a lee Loadall there seems to be no question of which is the less expensive way to go in the long run.

My Son shoots Winchester featherlight loads at matches and those are decent enought cases for a load or two of Black. Right now I'm giving those hulls to a pard who is loading them for himself. I could easily pick them up and load them with black.

I will have to think about which path is most economical. If I had 100 rounds of black powder shotshells on hand and the ability to reload those as I use them up I shoudl be able to keep shooting in the Black Powder categories as much as I want.

[Fairshake]

Let me add to my OP to you on loading BP hulls. As I posted I roll crimp which requires my hulls to have the old fold removed so that I have a new hull mouth to roll crimp.
This makes for a shorter hull and requires that I use a short wad. The short plastic wads which are made for the Old English Guns with 2 1/2 inch chambers are sold by BPI and Precision Loading. The wad is made by an Italian maker and has the stock number 072SSW.
I also use about 70 pounds of wad pressure that was posted by SHB. I was giving a brief idea and not including every step needed.
You talk of having 100 hulls to load. I go through about 1000 hulls every year as they are loaded only once for several reasons. The first being my roll crimp which would require the mouth to be trimmed back another cut. The second is that the real BP burns many times hotter than the other stuff they make to shoot, I forget what it's called at the moment. Any way the heat will cause small pin holes in the side of your hulls just above where it meets the brass. If loaded again this will cause a blown case in the chamber. no harm but not good for hitting targets.
I'm able to purchase my hulls for .05 a piece and find it's faster and easier to leave them behind and start with new ones.
If you use a folded crimp then you may be able to have 3 loads if your real luckey. But no more.
The roll crimp not only gives style points but it gives better patterns and less recoil.
The AA's, Remington STS, Nitro 27 (My Choice) and game loads hulls are the best to load.
Just always make sure that the hull you pick will shuck from your gun.
If a SXS you may hone the chambers with a brake cylinder hone that is designed for automotive work.
They work very well with a good oil and are much cheaper than those marked for firearms work.
Later David

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Anybody here load paper hulls?  I've been talking at length to Hoppy about reloading the BP hulls.  However, I have NO experience with plastic or paper hulls.  I told Hopalong that I thought that plastic hulls took wads the same size as paper.  Is that true?

Please add any experience you have for Hoppy (and anyone else who needs or likes to learn).

Thanks

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have loaded a few, Master Gunner.  They actually load and shoot well.  I usually used fibre wads, but I think some plastic wads would do as well.  Where they shine is with roll crimps. Cutting the hulls to 2.5" removes most of the case mouth damage.

I was using burn-barrel pick-ups which can be a bit ratty. I fitted them over a dowell and rubbed candle wax over the outside surface.  A bit tedious, but they seem to come out alright.  Don't expect them to last too many firings.  I also have a bag of once-fired Federals that seem ready to go as they are.

Sizing on a MEC Grabber press showed up another hitch.  When I sized them, the sizing stem had a bulge at the top (meant to straighten out plastic star crimps).  It belled the case mouth of the paper hulls.  A Call to MEC had a 16 gauge sizing stem on the way which solved that one.  I have since acquired a Size Master to size the heads which works bettter but depriming has to be done by hand.  Other presses might work differently?

The big drawback?  I wouldn't expect them to drop out of the chambers of a double that easily.

Have a go at it