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Harley Starr
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« on: February 25, 2012, 10:30:44 am »



Hunter Restorations

http://www.hunterrestorations.com/index.html
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John Taylor
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2012, 08:57:14 am »

I use Mike for color case and just sent three barrels to him for marking.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
Harley Starr
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 10:10:33 pm »

I use Mike for color case and just sent three barrels to him for marking.

How does his color case hold up compared to Turnbull?
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2012, 08:29:51 pm »

I have not had any complaints from customers about his color case.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
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« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 05:58:39 pm »

I might add that Hunter does case HARDENING and Turnbull only does case COLORING. BIG DIFFERENCE. The former wins every time.  Wink
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chipmaine
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 09:59:39 am »

To set the record straight.

Turnbulls case coloring is case hardening. Turnbulls coloring process is also called carburizing.


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3 Fingers Murphy
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 10:31:40 am »

To set the record straight.

Turnbulls case coloring is case hardening. Turnbulls coloring process is also called carburizing.




Yup. Don't know about it being called carburizing but I have a Ruger #1 that Turnbull did and it's not just color. I was asked before they did it if it was going to be engraved because they said the engraver wouldn't like what it did to his tools.
Murphy
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John Taylor
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 07:51:11 pm »

Yup. Don't know about it being called carburizing but I have a Ruger #1 that Turnbull did and it's not just color. I was asked before they did it if it was going to be engraved because they said the engraver wouldn't like what it did to his tools.
Murphy
Rugers are made from 4140 steel, no need to case harden and it can't be done with the old method. Mild steel can be color case hardened by the old charcoal and bone meal proses. The Rugers I have had done were with Cyanide which does not use as much heat. If you heat a Ruger frame up to color case temps and quench it will be as hard as a piece of glass and just as brittle. If you then draw the temper, there goes the color.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
3 Fingers Murphy
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 12:46:59 am »

Rugers are made from 4140 steel, no need to case harden and it can't be done with the old method. Mild steel can be color case hardened by the old charcoal and bone meal proses. The Rugers I have had done were with Cyanide which does not use as much heat. If you heat a Ruger frame up to color case temps and quench it will be as hard as a piece of glass and just as brittle. If you then draw the temper, there goes the color.

No skin off my nose, but it looks like you're questioning the honesty of Doug Turnbull and his company concerning what finishes they apply and tell their customers they have applied to their guns. 

Call them Monday and ask about getting a Ruger color case hardened and ask them if it is just a color or if it is actually case hardened.  You can look the number up or PM me and I'll provide it. I've seen cyanide color, it's plain looking and won't last, that's why I sent mine to Turnbull. The result is stunning like all of their work.
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Fox Creek Kid
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 05:47:28 pm »

To set the record straight.

Turnbulls case coloring is case hardening. Turnbulls coloring process is also called carburizing.





The explain to us please why Doug Turnbull admitted as such to noted Colt restoraton expert Dave Lanara in a conversation?
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Camille Eonich
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 05:43:09 pm »

Without proof that any such conversation took place I'll have to believe Turnbull.

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=27260

Quote
Description:    

This Ruger New Model Blackhawk has been custom finished using traditional Bone Charcoal Color Case Hardening on the frame, loading gate and hammer, as well as original style Charcoal Bluing on the grip frame, barrel, ejector rod and cylinder.

And
 
Quote
    Custom finishing work can be done on any Ruger single action revolver except those in stainless steel.
    Some Ruger revolvers are factory equipped with aluminum grip frames and ejector rod housings.  It is not possible to finish these aluminum parts.  Steel replacement parts can be fit for an additional fee.
    Prices are for revolvers that will require minimal polish/prep work.  For well used/worn revolvers, additional polish/prep work may be required at additional cost. 
    Prices do not include return shipping or insurance.

I also have a pair of Ruger's that were case hardened by Turnbull and you can very definitely tell the difference in the stock ruger case coloring, I have a pair of those too, and the case hardening done by Turnbull.


Maybe you could file a claim against Turnbull for false advertisement Kid if you can find the proof of his admittance.  Wink  I really don't think that it's a good idea to question a well known business person's reputation and craftsmanship based upon hearsay though.
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Raven
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2012, 10:58:14 am »

4140 can be Colorcased with Bone just like Mild Steel, but the temps must be lower so that the metal does not reach critical.
Accept for 4140....Colorcased, bone Hardening, carburizing, etc. when done for color on mild steel---are ALL the SAME!
Generaly among gunsmiths Hardening means Hard with NO color!
Hardness on mild steel is usualy a .001-.004 skin with a soft center.

Factory Rugers are colored with cyanide and Turnbull's are done with bone. Take a look at them side by side, you can't fake real bone case colors.

I don't think Doug has made any miss statements in his advertizing. I'm sorry if anyone takes this the wrong way, but you guys don't really know enough about casehardening and how the process is applied to different metals, and a lack of understanding of the redundent terminology of gunsmithing to be having this discussion.

The OP's question was who to send his project too. My recommendation would be the same as Harley and John....Hunter Restorations

Raven
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Harley Starr
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2012, 01:14:28 pm »

I sure didn't mean to start a debate. I can tell you right now I don't know thing one about casehardening other than I like it.

If Raven and John say that Hunter Restorations are pretty darn good then I'll keep them in mind.

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"I went out there"
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"And to feel as much"
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"Before he repents"
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Fox Creek Kid
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2012, 02:28:39 pm »

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I've had personal conversations with Doug Turnbull who admitted that his "Color" is not hard, only cosmetic.  He claimed he could make a hard surface, but was afraid to  warp the f rames.  One of the reasons he varnishes over the color is to keep it from rubbing off.  When it eventually flakes or chips, the color underneath is dull.  Not so with colts.  I would hope that he is hardening the frames now, but his fear of warpage makes me doubt it.  This is the reason the color is so brilliant, it has not been brought to a hot enough temp to really harden the surface.  the 4140 steel USF uses is hard enough with a mild heat treat for a frame, it doesn't evenn{sic} need case color.  Turnbull's is not like original Colts, and this is from many collectors I associate with.  Maybe some Winchesters, the 86 in particular.  You might try a test:  go under your trigger guard and try scratching the frame with a screwdriver.  If it scratches the metal, well, a driver is pretty soft compared to real hardening.  I'd be interested in the results. 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,23993.50.html


"jplower" quoted above is none other than famed Colt restoration expert, Dave Lanara. http://www.davelanaracolts.com/ In the world of Colt SAA collecting Dave Lanara ranks alongside John Kopec as the final "authority".

Perhaps Turnbull has perfected their method since then, but the ones I have seen in the past are indeed 'colored' and not case hardened.
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Raven
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 10:51:32 pm »

Quote
I've had personal conversations with Doug Turnbull who admitted that his "Color" is not hard, only cosmetic.  He claimed he could make a hard surface, but was afraid to  warp the f rames.  One of the reasons he varnishes over the color is to keep it from rubbing off.  When it eventually flakes or chips, the color underneath is dull.  Not so with colts.  I would hope that he is hardening the frames now, but his fear of warpage makes me doubt it.  This is the reason the color is so brilliant, it has not been brought to a hot enough temp to really harden the surface.  the 4140 steel USF uses is hard enough with a mild heat treat for a frame, it doesn't evenn{sic} need case color.  Turnbull's is not like original Colts, and this is from many collectors I associate with.  Maybe some Winchesters, the 86 in particular.  You might try a test:  go under your trigger guard and try scratching the frame with a screwdriver.  If it scratches the metal, well, a driver is pretty soft compared to real hardening.  I'd be interested in the results. 



Exactly as I would expect. When your restoring someones "Baby" and the frame warps, Your losing money. And you may have damaged unreplaceable parts and then your replacing a very expensive firearm.
When Colt, Winchester and others colorcased in the day some guns were prettyer than others...it was about hardening.
Today, especialy with companies like Turnbulls the customer Demands that the colors are the BEST so it's about color and not hardening. To get the best color with minimal warpage (and a certain amount of shrinkage which will tighten a loose gun) tempertures are lowered resulting in a thinner hardened skin generaly .001-.002

As far as matching colors go....on a commercial scale (Turnbull) the variety of available bone and wood charcoals is very limited. If you've ever seen photos of piles of buffalo bones from the 1800's a lot of that was turned into charcoal for the gun factories. The best colors were obtained with buffalo......No one can do that commercialy today!

If you are interested in the finer details of Colorcase hardening, check out this article by Dr. Oscar Gady the foremost expert on colorcase   http://www.doublegunshop.com/doublegunjournal_v7i4_9.htm

Raven
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3 Fingers Murphy
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 12:33:31 am »

4140 can be Colorcased with Bone just like Mild Steel, but the temps must be lower so that the metal does not reach critical.
Accept for 4140....Colorcased, bone Hardening, carburizing, etc. when done for color on mild steel---are ALL the SAME!
Generaly among gunsmiths Hardening means Hard with NO color!
Hardness on mild steel is usualy a .001-.004 skin with a soft center.

Factory Rugers are colored with cyanide and Turnbull's are done with bone. Take a look at them side by side, you can't fake real bone case colors.

I don't think Doug has made any miss statements in his advertizing. I'm sorry if anyone takes this the wrong way, but you guys don't really know enough about casehardening and how the process is applied to different metals, and a lack of understanding of the redundent terminology of gunsmithing to be having this discussion.

The OP's question was who to send his project too. My recommendation would be the same as Harley and John....Hunter Restorations

Raven

Raven,
I wasn't aware that you did color case hardening.  Do you have a portfolio of your work?
Murphy
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3 Fingers Murphy
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 12:50:04 am »


Exactly as I would expect. When your restoring someones "Baby" and the frame warps, Your losing money. And you may have damaged unreplaceable parts and then your replacing a very expensive firearm.
When Colt, Winchester and others colorcased in the day some guns were prettyer than others...it was about hardening.
Today, especialy with companies like Turnbulls the customer Demands that the colors are the BEST so it's about color and not hardening. To get the best color with minimal warpage (and a certain amount of shrinkage which will tighten a loose gun) tempertures are lowered resulting in a thinner hardened skin generaly .001-.002

As far as matching colors go....on a commercial scale (Turnbull) the variety of available bone and wood charcoals is very limited. If you've ever seen photos of piles of buffalo bones from the 1800's a lot of that was turned into charcoal for the gun factories. The best colors were obtained with buffalo......No one can do that commercialy today!

If you are interested in the finer details of Colorcase hardening, check out this article by Dr. Oscar Gady the foremost expert on colorcase   http://www.doublegunshop.com/doublegunjournal_v7i4_9.htm

Raven

It is more than 2. When I first contacted Turnbull about my No. 1 I mentioned I already had an engraved and French Gray nickel finish on another one and they told me it could not be easily engraved in a contrast like bluing.  I asked them how deep the case was and it was somewhere in the teens.  I've slept since then and don't remember the exact thickness, you could call and ask him as I suggested to John Taylor.
Murphy
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Raven
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 08:56:57 am »

Howdy 3 Fingers,

I used to do a Lot of colorcase when Ravens Roost Restorations was in business and up until the current economic situation I taught Colorcase among other things at Lassen Gunsmithing school. Since our merger with Kirst Konverter, we are not doing restorations anymore and I just colorcase for my personal custom work.

Personaly, I have not seen case color thicknessses in the "teens" and when I was teaching, my students and I cut open a lot of steel blocks to measure the the thickness of the case. Be aware I am talking about "Color" casehardened and not just "casehardened"....casehardeing without color can be harder deeper.

Pretty sure your No.1 with the French Grey finish was casehardened and would have a deeper hardness than a Colorcased gun. Besides whats the point of Colorcasing it and then polishing off the color?

You can see some of my work here.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30884.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39585.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,34383.0.html

Raven
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Marshal Deadwood
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 12:44:45 pm »

I talked to Turnbull myself just the other day. Color case Harding is COLOR CASE HARDENING. Case coloring is just  'coloring' and not hardienng'

That is what they told me on the phone.

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Raven
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 02:23:28 pm »

Every business has to cover their ass.

Pretty much what I said in my earlier post.....just that nobody uses a standard nomenclature
I'm sure Turnbull uses the nomenclature he used with you so that no one can come back and say the steel isn't hard.
No matter what he calls it if the steel is heated to critical temp in bone and wood charcoal for color, then the process is "Color Case Hardening" how much hardening takes place is dependant on the temp and soak time. You can Color Case Harden for hardness and you can Color Case Harden for color, either way it's still Color Case Hardening!

We are argueing about words...nomenclature, and until we all use the same nomenclature it's meaningless.
Read Dr Gady's papers and then we can talk process. You will find that Color Case Hardening is Color Case Hardening no matter what the resulting surface hardness is.

Raven
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Camille Eonich
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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 02:49:40 pm »

Good thread!  I'm learning a lot.


Sounds as though he is going through all of the steps that proper case hardening requires and is doing it all right but not actually jacking the temperature up enough to make the final product as hard as some would expect from case hardening.  So technically it is case hardening but technically it's not that much harder than before it was treated.


Am I right?  Did I win the cookie?
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3 Fingers Murphy
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 05:31:45 pm »

Howdy 3 Fingers,

I used to do a Lot of colorcase when Ravens Roost Restorations was in business and up until the current economic situation I taught Colorcase among other things at Lassen Gunsmithing school. Since our merger with Kirst Konverter, we are not doing restorations anymore and I just colorcase for my personal custom work.

Personaly, I have not seen case color thicknessses in the "teens" and when I was teaching, my students and I cut open a lot of steel blocks to measure the the thickness of the case. Be aware I am talking about "Color" casehardened and not just "casehardened"....casehardeing without color can be harder deeper.

Pretty sure your No.1 with the French Grey finish was casehardened and would have a deeper hardness than a Colorcased gun. Besides whats the point of Colorcasing it and then polishing off the color?

You can see some of my work here.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30884.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,39585.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,34383.0.html

Raven

Raven,
Very NICE! Cheesy
I didn't realize you are doing your own color case hardening. Very nice work. I just looked on your web page and case hardening is not listed as a finish, do you have a price list for it?

I was talking about two completely different rifles. My No. 1 with the French Gray finish won't ever be case hardened while I'm alive.Wink It has the heat treatment from the factory and it was engraved, plated and lightly buffed on the high areas. French gray is a matte nickel finish. Mine is darker in the relief area.

With the rifle I sent to Turnbull  I asked about engraving the case hardened receiver. They suggested I have it engraved before case hardening and getting it silver or gold filled afterwards if I wanted contrast because it couldn't be engraved with standard tools. I asked how deep and how hard, they told me very hard and it was somewhere in the teens deep. I didn't have it engraved.
Murphy
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Twitchy
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 08:08:46 pm »

Raven,
Thanks for the info.  This is a very good thread. I have been very interested in color casing for several years and have read evrything I could find about it.  The double gun journal article is the best source of instruction/info on how its really done.  My interest lies primarily in the cosmetics of color casing as I suspect most of the rest of us are too.  Thanks for helping clarify a few things I have learned a lot.
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2012, 04:27:24 am »

JUST READ - Possible questions about color case hardening by Doug Turnbull.


I DO NOT HAVE MUCH KNOWLEDGE ON THIS SUBJECT, but would like to add something to this discussion nonetheless.


The question I pose is THIS: Why would/should one actually harden a gun frame that's already been hardened in the past?  Could it make it dangerous or susceptable to shattering when fired? 

With my current knowledge albeit quite limited on this subject - this would really make sense to me.  I did have a hammer mounted firing pin break on me because it was too hard.

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Raven
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 08:57:04 am »

Quote
Very NICE!
I didn't realize you are doing your own color case hardening. Very nice work. I just looked on your web page and case hardening is not listed as a finish, do you have a price list for it?


Thanks Murphy. We no longer Colorcase commercialy, when we did our prices were compairable to Turnbulls. I got very tired of polishing guns that didn't need polishing ( every customer says their gun is in Great shape an dosen't need polishing.....I've never seen an old that didn't Roll Eyes) Now I just do it for my personal projects.

Quote
The question I pose is THIS: Why would/should one actually harden a gun frame that's already been hardened in the past?  Could it make it dangerous or susceptable to shattering when fired? 


The only reason to reharden a part that is allready hard is to Restore the part to like NEW (or modify the part). When professionals do this they first Anneal the part so that it is soft, then it is casehardened or color casehardened. After annealing but before hardening is when people should have guns engraved.....makes for a much easier job for the engraver. Generaly mild steel will not shatter but if to hard or stressed they can definately crack.
4140 should be left to the professionals DO NOT do any backyard exoeriments trying to colorcase 4140. 4140 will shatter if not handeled correctly. I would bet that Doug Turnbull did some major consultation with a metalurgist before he offered colorcased 4140 to the market because the liability is huge.

Raven

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