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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  Gunsmithing  |  Topic: Permanent re-lining of a BP shotgun into 45 long Colt 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Permanent re-lining of a BP shotgun into 45 long Colt  (Read 2393 times)
One Tall Man
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« on: January 10, 2012, 07:11:37 pm »


Being not familiar with installing liners into a shotgun, I am seeking advise from the experts.
Up here in Canada this pre-1898 shotgun would have been considered antique class and not subject to registration and licensing, i.e. anyone can own it, as long as it's not in the common gauges (10, 12, 16 etc down to 410 bore).

I own a lower-end BP sxs shotgun with damascus barrels that was made pre 1896. If I could have permanent liners installed, that would do the trick: get me an antique class firearm, shootable with smokeless.

So I talked to Mike at TJ's. He stocks .795 12ga shotgun liners in 45 calibre with 1:16 twist.
One thing is that .795" is still a tad smaller than the 0.811" chambers.
For the Canadian authorities to consider conversion permanent, I have to either solder or weld the liner in. Epoxying or locktighting them would not be good enough.

1. Would the existing barrels be soldered together? Is that how the guns were made in the late 1890s? If yes, would it still be possible to solder the liners in somehow, w/o messing with the alignment?
2. Would it be Ok to fill the 0.008" gap between the liner and chambers with soft solder?
3. Another question: the barrels are 30". The liners cost $4.95 per inch, so quite a few bucks to line both barrels.
Can the liners be shorter than the barrels, 20" for example?
4. To what diameter would I have to turn down the liners, if the bore diameter is .716?

So please talk reason into this confused one or talk me out of this project - everything appreciated!

Thank you!
OTM
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 11:51:44 am »

One person to call is Kerry Jenkinson in Grand Forks BC. He was trained at Enfield and is VERY knowlegable in older guns.  He even knows how to make pinfire ammo from modern shotshell cases!  He used to stock cases, dies, etc. for obsolete stuff. PM me for a phone number if you can't find it.

How about 24 Gauge.  Magtech make brass cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(bore_diameter)
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
One Tall Man
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 02:17:04 pm »

One person to call is Kery Jenkinson in Grand Forks BC.
Think I found it, appreciate the tip!

How about 24 Gauge.  Magtech make brass cases.

I thought of all possible shotgun gauges for this project, and they all would be more difficult to load, than 44 special, 45 colt or 45 Schoffield (if pressure permits). I honestly would not know how to set up reloading in 24 gauge with so much stuff going on around here. I don't even have time anymore to load a box of 223 for a range day Sad
12ga is a piece of cake with Lee LoadAll and the other gauges scare the Jesus out of me Sad
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 07:00:04 pm »

I honestly would not know how to set up reloading in 24 gauge with so much stuff going on around here. I don't even have time anymore to load a box of 223 for a range day Sad
12ga is a piece of cake with Lee LoadAll and the other gauges scare the Jesus out of me Sad

Loading brass shotshell cases is easy, as a press is not required.  A primer punch to deprime over a large nut. (Sorry; I'm NOT volunteering!)  A block with a metal plate and a hollow punch - Copper pipe or a deep hole socket to fit - for repriming. And a wooden dowel to settle your wads, and secure the over shot card with white glue.  Talk to Kerry, but I think regular fibre wads in 20 gauge might work in 24 gauge Magtech cases.  The general instructions should be in the Blackpowder child board THE DARK ARTS.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9733.0.html

The proper wads for 24 ga. Magtechs are available from Circle Fly;

http://www.circlefly.com/html/wad_sizing_chart.html
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
John Taylor
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 11:04:58 pm »

Shotgun barrel on a SXS are not strait so installing liners will not have the gun shooting the way you want.  I use the smaller diameter liners and make bushing to center it in the chamber end and offset bushings for the center and muzzle end. The liners are then turned to regulate with lots of shooting to get them where you want them.  Your old shotgun is put together with soft solder and if you try to solder the liners in you may have a big mess on your hands . If you need a permanent installation you could have someone with a tig torch weld the liner to the barrel at the chamber end, only at the out side edge. With 30" barrels the gun will weigh in at about 14 pounds or more. You could get by with shorter liners and you could cut the barrel off to have less weight.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
One Tall Man
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 01:50:31 pm »

John,

TIG welding the liner to the breech end would work for the legal part of conversion.
But what about the rest of the liner? Should it be epoxied (or locktited)?
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John Taylor
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2012, 12:04:47 am »

John,

TIG welding the liner to the breech end would work for the legal part of conversion.
But what about the rest of the liner? Should it be epoxied (or locktited)?

I usually go for a close fit and use Loctite. When I install liners on rifle barrels I try for .002" clearance, not enough room for epoxy.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2012, 01:25:56 am »

A question about relining. What about shooting the black powder,,the fact it gets so hot ? Does that EVER present a prob with the liner slipping or becoming unstable after installed ?

Thanks

Deadwood
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John Taylor
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 09:43:52 am »

A question about relining. What about shooting the black powder,,the fact it gets so hot ? Does that EVER present a prob with the liner slipping or becoming unstable after installed ?

Thanks

Deadwood
I once installed the wrong liner in a rifle. I tried heating the barrel up and pulling the liner out so I could save it. Just a bunch of wasted time, it didn't budge. I ended up drilling it out.  Hot tank blue has no effect ether.  If I had done it with epoxy like some do I might have gotten it out.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
One Tall Man
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2012, 10:47:28 am »

Thanks for posting, John, appreciate you sharing your experience!
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One Tall Man
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 02:18:03 pm »

I once installed the wrong liner in a rifle. I tried heating the barrel up and pulling the liner out so I could save it. Just a bunch of wasted time, it didn't budge. I ended up drilling it out.  Hot tank blue has no effect ether.  If I had done it with epoxy like some do I might have gotten it out.
What kind of Locktite is that? They have so many products!
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John Taylor
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 08:14:36 pm »

Loctite 262
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John Taylor, gunsmith
One Tall Man
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 09:00:54 pm »

If you need a permanent installation you could have someone with a tig torch weld the liner to the barrel at the chamber end, only at the out side edge. With 30" barrels the gun will weigh in at about 14 pounds or more. You could get by with shorter liners and you could cut the barrel off to have less weight.

It turns out that Canadian authorities don't concern themselves with the exact method of attaching the liner to the shotgun barrels. The tech at our equivalent of ATF told me that they only look at whether those are liners, or inserts that can be removed by the user. Locktite is fine by them, as is epoxy or simple heating and pressing in. As long as it requires tools to remove - it's permanent in their opinion. Thus no need for TIG welding, which is fabulous.

Regards
OTM
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John Taylor
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 10:22:14 am »

Now comes the fun of figuring out how to regulate the barrels and install sights. When regulating I usually install a scope because my eyes are not as good as there once were. A little ( lot) of epoxy on the base and a couple hose claps work for the temporary mount. A little heat to the barrels will let the epoxy loose later. Off-set bushing on the liner and turning the liner to regulate works. I solder the bushings to the liner first.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
One Tall Man
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 09:00:45 am »

Now comes the fun of figuring out how to regulate the barrels and install sights. When regulating I usually install a scope because my eyes are not as good as there once were. A little ( lot) of epoxy on the base and a couple hose claps work for the temporary mount. A little heat to the barrels will let the epoxy loose later. Off-set bushing on the liner and turning the liner to regulate works. I solder the bushings to the liner first.
Finally, I've found a gunsmith who was agreeable to profile the liners for me. But he flat out refused to regulate as that would require many trips to the range, and I don't blame him. His municipality has recently shut down the city range.
But he stopped responding when I asked to confirm that he would also machine the cavities for extractor into the breech ends, it might be just that he's busy, but still I am kind of prepared to give up and keep searching  Sad

John,

What do you think of alternative method - cutting the barrels a couple inches ahead of chambers, and profiling liners to match the old barrel contours. Would it be very difficult to profile them, and to solder the new barrels to the old rib (that would have to be shortened in that case)?
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2012, 10:35:27 am »

Onetallman;  I didn't catch where you are located.  There is another guy I have used in Delta BC, Barry at "Bits of Pieces". I'm not sure of his experience with doubles.

I think you are guessing right.  Regulation is VERY time consuming and even if you are rich the price will put it over the top. Perhaps a "Cape Gun" concept will work.  A rifle tube on one side and a shottie on the other.  Then sight in for the rifle and put up with the results from scatter barrel.

Other options are to sell it or hang it on the wall Cry
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
John Taylor
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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 09:25:21 am »

I'm in the process of building a double rifle now on a Winchester 21. The owner wanted me to cut the barrels off and use the "mono block". I could not make myself cut off a set of good model 21 barrels so I machined a new mono block from a piece of 4140 heat treated steel. The barrels are then threaded to the mono block and extractor/ ejectors made. I am to the spot where the muzzle end will be clamped together with a sight. There will be a short rib for the rear sight and the rest will not have a rib, look like a skeleton. I turned the barrels down quite a bit trying to get rid of some weight. Caliber is 416-500 NE.
The last double I made for the same customer was an over/under and I made adjustable regulators. Not sure how I'm going to regulate this one, most likely the old fashion way. You might look for the book " building double rifles" by W. Ellis Brown.
With a 45 Colt you are not working with high pressure but I still think threading the barrels to the mono block is the best idea. You could solder the liners to a bushing to take up the space in the shotgun chambers. Solder would also work for holding the bushings in unless it is an old set of shotgun barrels that were soldered to begin with, you might end up with a bunch of separated pieces.
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John Taylor, gunsmith
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 11:07:55 am »

Wow! John;  That sounds like a labour of love, for a VERY good customer.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
One Tall Man
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2012, 10:18:35 am »

With a 45 Colt you are not working with high pressure but I still think threading the barrels to the mono block is the best idea. You could solder the liners to a bushing to take up the space in the shotgun chambers. Solder would also work for holding the bushings in unless it is an old set of shotgun barrels that were soldered to begin with, you might end up with a bunch of separated pieces.
Under Canadian law this would be considered antique only if the original barrels with the pre-1898 Liege proof mark were kept intact. The whole point of this project is to have a rifle that is not subject to licensing and registration. That can be only achieved if the original proof marks are there. So either cutting off the barrels just in front of the proof marks, or sleeving would work.

Bits and Pieces initially agreed to contour, chamber and crown the barrels but not regulate them. He stopped responding when I asked to confirm if he would mill the extractor cavities.
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2012, 10:25:35 am »

Under Canadian law this would be considered antique only if the original barrels with the pre-1898 Liege proof mark were kept intact. The whole point of this project is to have a rifle that is not subject to licensing and registration. That can be only achieved if the original proof marks are there. So either cutting off the barrels just in front of the proof marks, or sleeving would work.



Maybe if you wait a bit Parliament will abolish the registry.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
One Tall Man
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 02:37:40 pm »

They sure will, but I will have to wait years more until they abolish the licensing.
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