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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  BROW (Moderator: Delmonico)  |  Topic: What ammo box for 45/70 nose up? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: What ammo box for 45/70 nose up?  (Read 3061 times)
Wagon Box Willy
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« on: January 29, 2012, 12:29:41 pm »


Howdy folks,

Which ammo boxes are you using for your 45/70's.  I saw some references to the MTM RF22-LM but the description doesn't list the 45/70.

Any help will be appreciated, thanks
  Willy
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 12:43:31 pm »

The MTM and Frankford arsenal boxes for the wsm's will hold some 45-70's nose up. You have to watch tho some of those boxes the compartments are deep enough that you have a hard to getting to empty cases without turning the box over.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 03:43:21 pm »

Sittting here with a MTM Case Guard RMLD-50 for a laundry list of WSM 300/700 SAUM
45-70 ad others.  Hold 45-70 bullet up with about 3/4 inch of the brass sticking up above the internal webbing to hold cartridges apart.  Brass just slightly longer than rim of box.
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Wagon Box Willy
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 04:16:33 pm »

Thanks Pards.

Willy
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 05:52:09 pm »

Willy,

I store my 45-70s (and 45-90s) in the "nose down" position. I use nothing but BP with card wads and homemade lube. The reasoning behind this is that in warm (hot) weather conditions, the lube can soften enough (if stored nose up) that it could migrate from the bullet to the wad to the powder and cause ignition problems if it sits that way too long. Nothing against storing them nose up if that's what you wish to do, just giving a good reason not to. YMMV - Best to ya.
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 05:07:36 pm »

Hi,

I believe Hoof-Hearted is making very lovely wooden cartridge boxes with the cartridge logo'd on the front ... and he could probably increase the diameter of the cartridge holes to allow you to put your cartridges in nose up ... give him a PM and ask ...

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?action=classifieds;sa=view;id=289
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 06:56:30 pm »

You could always turn the box upside down Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 08:37:46 pm »

One of my pals just acquired a Uberti High Wall in 45-120. Now that's a problem to find boxes for.

He had it at the range t'other day when I was plinking with a smokeless 50-70 load. He really wanted me to fire it, but it's got a tapered octagonal barrel better suited to a 45-70.

I declined the opportunity, something I rarely do when offered a chance to shoot a BPCR. There's something about detached retinas that just doesn't quite appeal to me ..... ;>)
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 02:13:37 am »

PJ,

I had sent a PM before, but the 45-120 ammo might be nearly impossible to get a normal box for.

But Hoof Hearted is making lovely boxes and could probably make one for the 45-120

I would send him a PM, and if he is interested he could get in touch with your friend ....

BTW, I thought the .45-110 was the largest of the .45 cases made ...

TTFN
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 09:38:34 am »

Buffalo Arms has the Cheyenne Cardboard Cartridge Boxes for the Sharps.  They are a little tall for 50-70 but work pretty well for everything else.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 11:52:20 am »

WWE

Avail yourself of a copy of Seller's book on the Sharps rifles and cartridges. The 3-1/4" (45-120) case was not loaded by Sharps and it was not until 1884 that UMC and Winchester marketed the 3-1/4" case. It was too late for use on the great plains buffalo slaughter.

The 45-120 is a rifle that I really enjoy watching someone else shoot. The macho men will say that anyone can handle the recoil. Yeah, for a few shots until severe recoil anticipation (aka as flinching) sets in.
The rifle in question (my pal's High Wall) has a barrel of hunting weight suited for the 45-70 (2-1/10") case. Even so, with it's crescent steel butt plate, it would get your attention when shot from the bench or x-sticks.

I met a fellow at the range one day with some really nice 38-55s. He was shooting smokeless and BP loads. When he saw my Shiloh 45-70 Business Rifle, he asked me if I knew anyone who might buy his Shiloh 45-120. I asked him - "Why did you buy it?" Answer - "I was 20 years younger and it seemed like a good idea at the time."

I referred him to a CAS shooter I did not like and he bought it. I often wonder if he still has it and shoots it .....

I once invested in several custom pasteboard/paper ammo boxes for CAS. They were roughly handled by ROs at a match I went to that had no respect for personal property. I no longer got there and am now quite content to use indestructible plastic boxes for all my ammo.
Since I arrive for shoots in a Toyota Tacoma 4x4 crew cab and not a buckboard, I make no apologies for my ammo boxes.
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 04:12:03 am »

PJ,

I am learning as I go .... all I know of BROW I got from this forum, the reloading forums and Mike Venturino's book ...

And my bark is far worse than my toothless bite ... in fact, when I sound like my intent is to degrade, the actual purpose is because I haven't a clue and am seeking information .... as was the fact in my last post. I just don't get my intentions clear on paper .... it is hard enough to do when I have voice inflections to work with ....

Please be kind enough to accept my humble apology; no degradation was meant; I was only trying to get some information that I obviously did not have ....

TTFN,
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 11:35:57 am »

WWE

No, it is I that owe you an apology ....  I came across as a smart (_*_) know-it-all, exactly the kind of person I dislike. On another forum concerned with Sharps rifles, the subscribers are notorious for jumping down the throats of newbies that ask the obvious (FAQ) questions. Obvious to them, that is.
The only way to learn is to ask, and sometimes that takes guts, depending upon the company. It has prompted many people to unsubscribe from that other forum and let the good ol' boys have their private club. I enjoy sparring with them just to watch them spin ..... :>)

Wildman - Yep, that's my Toyobox. Same silver grey colour. Not half the truck that my '91 SR5 is. I go places with it that the newer vehicle couldn't go.
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 01:26:13 pm »

PJ

I'm on that other forum too and, yes, the regulars don't suffer fools gladly. Their reaction to questions is generally based on the way the question is asked though - as is the way on ANY forum. And as many of them shoot regularly together their banter can often be misread as arguing.

On the subject of "45/120" it is actually a misnomer. To be correct the calibres should be refered to by length as the /70, /90, /100, /110, /120 part is meaningless as it refers to the powder charge, all of the cartridges will accept much more powder. The "120" that has been refered to in some of the old writings was actually loaded into the 2 7/8" case (now refered to as the 45/110). I've seen the original box.  My 45 3 1/4" will easily take 140 grns using a paper patch and I'm having to load 104 grns in my "50/90" to avoid air space and maintain accuracy. I will NOT use fillers!

The heavier loads can produce flinch if the rifle has a military stock or crescent butt - pain has a habit of causing that  Grin but that is what recoil pads are for....

Hold centre (and read the wind)
Clive

ps. and I'm not a callow youth just wanting load bangs, 61 with 40 years of shooting including 2 BPCR World Long Range Championships!
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 10:53:33 am »

Sharps4065

Thanks for the back up! But I have to disagree with the "... don't suffer fools gladly ..." comment. Some of the responses I've read on the "other forum" are downright rude and offensive; prime examples of the cyber-bully syndrome. I've had a couple of good verbal dust ups with a few good o'l boy curmudgeons in the past.

As for getting in more powder in a case than the nominal headstamp charge, most shooters seem to have the opposite experience - i.e. 62-64 grs in a 45-70 case, 73-75 grs in a 45-90, etc.

"That is, 45.70s could only be loaded with about 60 grs and 45-90s with about 75 grs, and so forth."  Mike Venturino in "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West".
In fact, no where in his book does Venturino get the full nominal charge in any case with the exception of the 44-77 BN. On page 155, the chapter on the 45-110 (2-7/8"), there is a picture of an original factory 45-110 cartridge box and the listed powder charge is 100 grs with a 550 gr bullet.
Seller's book states that factory 2-7/8" cases were loaded with 90 grs, later increased to 100 grs under 500 gr bullets. Only with the 'Express' load (45-110-293) did the case hold 110 grs.

Shiloh used to chamber a free bore to accomodate a larger powder charge by seating out the bullet. This proved disasterous for paper patching and was discontinued. A friend has a Shiloh so chambered and he gets a full 70 grs in his 2-1/10ths (45-70) cases by seating out 405 gr bullets. My Farmingdale Business Rifle does not have this fee bore chamber.

Recoil pads and 'sissy pads' can and do take the sting out of heavy loads, but detract somewhat from the historical aspect of shooting BPCRs. The guns already have a faster twist than ever they had historically, so I suppose it is moot.
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 12:02:51 pm »


As for getting in more powder in a case than the nominal headstamp charge, most shooters seem to have the opposite experience - i.e. 62-64 grs in a 45-70 case, 73-75 grs in a 45-90, etc.

"That is, 45.70s could only be loaded with about 60 grs and 45-90s with about 75 grs, and so forth."  Mike Venturino in "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West".
In fact, no where in his book does Venturino get the full nominal charge in any case with the exception of the 44-77 BN. On page 155, the chapter on the 45-110 (2-7/8"), there is a picture of an original factory 45-110 cartridge box and the listed powder charge is 100 grs with a 550 gr bullet.
Seller's book states that factory 2-7/8" cases were loaded with 90 grs, later increased to 100 grs under 500 gr bullets. Only with the 'Express' load (45-110-293) did the case hold 110 grs.


I have Mike's book, he gave it to me autographed when I met him in Montana. But I have to admit I've not read it, nor can I understand why he should make such a statement unless he's refering to a very long bodied, deep seated Government bullets - certainly not bore riders anyway. I don't load for 45 x  2 1/10 but my shooting partner does. He won the World Long Range Championship in South Africa in 2006 with it. His load was 73 grns of Swiss #3 and a 565 grn Paul Jones cut PGT. He wasn't breach seating nor does he have long freebore, it's a standard Pedersoli Long Range chamber cut. Dave G. just pipped him on the mid range to take the overall title. Colin is currently doing load development for a 40/70SS. At the moment he's up around the 90 grns! I load 40/65 with 67 grns Swiss #3 and an NEI Lundy, again with a standard Pedersoli chamber. I load 50/90 with 104 grns of Swiss #4 using a money style bullet specifically designed for me (and a standard Shiloh chamber) by, well, you'll know him as HPGUY. That gives tack driving accuracy but the load development range started at 98 grns and went all the way up to 118 grns. To load 90 grns would need a filler. I could give you chapter and verse on shooters loading more than the "named" volume if you wish, my side of the pond and yours. On the other hand I also load for a 50/95 Winchester '76 and can't quite make the 95 grns. But then I don't need to as it's accurate with less. The only reason for loading more or less powder than the "named" volume is to obtain optimum accuracy and that is done by good load development. Sometimes it's more sometimes it's less. So, I'll say again, I'm at a loss to know whey Mike should make such a statement. I'll ask him next time we speak.

I have read Sellers, it's a good read. But I've also seen the 45-550-120 cartridge box when I last visited the US. The Gettysburg Museum - I think. But it may have been in Cody. The reason I know about the 120 grn load is that there were many and lengthy "discussions" about the "45/120" on the old Shooters forum. Do you remember it?

I agree that Kirk does not cut his chambers for paper patching - unless you ask him to. But are you refering to Shiloh pre Bryans with regards to freebore?

I can only assume your friend does not drop tube nor compress, there can't be any other reason for even considering the 405 grn.....!

Of course pads may detract from the historical aspect of shooting BPCRs (but so does loading nitro or BP subs  Grin ), but do you have any historical evidence that something was not used to dampen recoil. I have no evidence that they were, but then I've never looked for it. All I can say is that recoil hurt then as it does now and I can't believe that shooters then did not do something to alleviate it.  But I can also say that when I enter a match, do load development or just shoot for the hell of it I'm shooting more rounds in a shorter time than a buffalo runner so recoil protection is, to me, perfectly acceptable.

As a matter of interest what name did you post under on the other site?

Hold centre (and read the wind)
Clive
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 01:13:16 pm »

sharps4065

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you on the topic. If you can get the nominal charge or more in a modern solid head case than the original balloon headed cases could not hold, more power to you (pun intended).
If you take the time to read Mike's book, you'll see that he was by no means deep seating bullets, but loading some with grease grooves exposed.
The only way I can get 70 grs into my BELL and Star-Line 50-70 brass is to load 375 gr bullets as opposed to 65 grs using the Lyman 515141s. The 375s have one less grease groove than the 425s. I am both drop tubing and compressing, no wads. As everything I shoot drops in it's tracks, I see no need to 'hot rod' the cartridge. I am primarily a hunter, not a target shooter. In my 45-70 Business Rifle with crescent butt plate, the heaviest bullet I actually enjoy shooting is the Lyman 457122/420FN over 62-63 grs FFg, card wad. Again, everything I shoot goes down, so I'm happy.

I presume that MLV was referring to current manufacture Shiloh rifles, as he made reference to C. Sharps rifles in the same paragraph. Ask him.
Whether or not my friend was drop tubing or compressing, I don't know. Since he is a regular at the Quigley, I presume he uses the standard loading techniques. He is happy with the results he is getting, so it didn't occur to me to ask him.

You may be shooting more rounds in a shorter period of time than a 'buffalo runner', but a long string at a 'stand' was nothing to sneer at, and I doubt that they were using recoil pads or 'sissy pads'. Same for the old time rifle shooters whose rifles were quite light compared to today's.

If your point is that you are a more knowledgeable and experienced long range target rifle shooter, I concede.

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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 01:56:54 pm »

PJ

I disagreed with some of what you've said and I purely backed it up with first hand experience rather than quoting from books. If you deem disagreeing with you is a pissing contest then there seems to be little point in having any discussion with you does there?

Hold centre (and read the wind)
Clive

ps and I'm not a bad short and mid range shooter either  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 04:07:11 pm »

I was not dismissing your empirical/practical experience. What I said was that others (including MLV) have had differing experience and that the historical record also differs.
I also gave you my personal practical experience. I wasn't looking for your agreement or approval.

I find it interesting that you so casually dismiss the findings and opinions of MLV, a man gracious enough to give you an autographed copy of his book (a book most of us have a high regard for) and not even read it.

I have conceded that you are probably a more knowledgeable and experienced long range BPCR rifleman and I'm happy that extends to your short and mid-range shooting as well.

Thank you for the shooting advice.
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 04:14:43 pm »

We have drifted a bit away from ammo boxes.  There were some good comments and one silly gibe - mine! Cheesy

Now the game seems to be "king-of-the-hill"! Shocked  Please be positive and helpful.
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With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 05:38:05 pm »

Afternoon All,

As I am still trying to get the trapdoor on paper I cannot coment on what is the best ect..  But I do have a handle on 45-70 ammo boxes that sit with the base down.  Berrys MFG has a 50 rounder #411 that allow you to put them base down but they do not work for the longer bullets, I am using 405gr flat nose and they work.

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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2012, 04:12:18 am »

Now the game seems to be "king-of-the-hill"! Shocked  Please be positive and helpful.

Surely disagreeing with someone and giving hard earned experience in support can not be looked upon as "king-of-the-hill" or a "pissing contest"! In fact passing on information is emminently "positive and helpful", how else can we learn. Receiving advice and opinion from other shooters is how I learnt and continue to learn. You never know it all in this game....!

But for all that I do apologise to the original poster for joining in the already diverted original subject.

Hold centre (and read the wind)
Clive
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2012, 04:20:40 am »

I was not dismissing your empirical/practical experience. What I said was that others (including MLV) have had differing experience and that the historical record also differs.
I also gave you my personal practical experience.

As I you, but I didn't take exception to receiving it

 I wasn't looking for your agreement or approval.

Of that I have no doubt

I find it interesting that you so casually dismiss the findings and opinions of MLV, a man gracious enough to give you an autographed copy of his book (a book most of us have a high regard for) and not even read it.

I have quite an extensive library of books on shooting as it would seem you do. However, rather than read them from cover to cover and memorise them, I dip into them and find useful information and try it. It may work in which case I continue to use it. It may work in which case I don't. There was an acronym oft used on Shooters, YMMV, Your Mileage May Vary, and that is so true with these old boomers.

I have conceded that you are probably a more knowledgeable and experienced long range BPCR rifleman and I'm happy that extends to your short and mid-range shooting as well.

You're so gracious

Thank you for the shooting advice.

Anytime

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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2012, 11:36:59 am »

Wagon Box Willy

To help get this thread back on line these are the boxes I use:

http://jandjproducts.com/proddetail.php?prod=XL-20

They were the only ones I could get over here but maybe there are others. They will take 45 and 50 cal base down, and being slip lids your col or calibre is not critical. It's a pain only holding 20 but I've not been able to find anything bigger.

Hold centre (and read the wind)
Clive
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2012, 01:05:39 pm »

Thanks Clive;  I like those slip top boxes.  I hold the tops sorta-secure with heavy duty elastic bands.

There is a version for .45-70 (bullet-down), but the dividers were to low.  I got the higher ones for belted mag cases and used a wood chisel to cut down the raised spacer-lugs in the lid to allow them to conform to the .45-70, etc., cases.  Some I had to shorten the lid all the way around as well.

I haven't seen any around for years.  Now I know where to get them.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
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