Wheel weights hard on barrels?

[PJ Hardtack]

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An 'expert' has assured me that I am ruining the barrel in my Shiloh 50-70s by (a) using bullets cast from wheel weights and (b) using 5744. Huh? Wheel weight metal and unburned powder granules are harder than barrel steel?

I get all the accuracy I need and expect with ww bullets using 5744 and duplex loads. For 100% BP, I use my own alloy mix. SPG lube for all.

This same guy thinks nothing about shooting jacketed bullets out of antique handguns ..... go figure.

Comments, opinions .... ?

[Shotgun Franklin]

It's just his opinion, likely you'll cause more barrel wear with a 'good cleaning' than with shooting wheel weights.

[Niederlander]

Did he say what he's an "expert" in?  I've shot thousands of bullets cast from wheel weights out of quite a few guns and I've yet to ruin a barrel with them.  I guess I'm at a loss to know how something as soft as wheel weight metal would wear out barrel steel.  It's not like barrels are made of brass or aluminum.

[Ranch 13]

  Reminds me of the idiot giving a presentation on muzzleloaders,,, "yeh you gotta use pure lead in these rifles, wheelweights will strip the rifling right out in strings" 
 No wheelweights won't ruin the barrel of your Shiloh. There are a number of shiloh shooters that have fired untold thousands of rounds cast from wheelweights and those rifles are still chuggin right along.

[john boy]

PJ, telll this 'expert' to log onto the Brow and put his expertise in writing here.
As Ranch said - folks have shot thousands out of their Sharps and "those rifles are still chuggin right along."

The hardness of clip on wheel weights runs between Brinell Hardness of 13.5 to 15.4.  Lyman #2, the alloy that Lyman tests all the bullet data with - has a hardness of Bhn 15.  So, do you believe Lyman would use an alloy in their published handbooks that ..."Wheel weight metal and unburned powder granules are harder than barrel steel?"

Tell the expert ... "He doesn't know the difference between sh** and Shinola"

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

"X" is the unknown quantity, and



"SPURT" is a drip under pressure

[Mossyrock]

To quote or British brethren, "Bollocks!"   

[Trailrider]

A total impossibility! Even old original iron barrels are harder than wheelweights OR Lyman #2 or anything else you can cast with lead-tin-antimony alloys!  I suppose if you have a LOT of road dirt in your wheelweights and NEVER fluxed and skimmed the dross and crud from the top of the mix, you could cause a LITTLE wear in the barrel. (Say, after 10,000 rounds or so!) But I sure wouldn't worry about wheelweights or linotype metal or even alloys as hard as 17-22 BHN, about as hard as they come from most commercial manufacturers of bullets.

Happy Holidays, Pards!

[quigleysharps4570]

PJ, telll this 'expert' to log onto the Brow and put his expertise in writing here.

That would be quite entertaining I'm sure.

[Otter]

You may expose your barrel to more "wear" using WW for your bullets. But, you more than likely will not "ruin" your barrel doing so. I have a friend who shoots WW bullets in his BPCR rifles, and had done so for years, without "ruining" any barrel. As another has mentioned, you will be more likely to ruin a barrel during the cleaning process than by shooting WW bullets. After all, how many copper clad bullets have been used over the couse of the years?

That said, I use as pure lead as I can get using only pure tin as an alloy. As much to fill the mould better than any other reason. I'm more concerned about the fit of the bullet to the bore than the little more hardness in the WW bullets. But that may just be me.

[PJ Hardtack]

I mostly use ww bullets with smokeless and alloy with BP. However, I have shot BP with ww as well and it was OK. The concern was bullet upset with the harder bullets, but since the bores of my Shiloh 50-70s mike .510 and I size to .512, it's moot.

Had a great casting session yesterday afternoon, producing close to 200 Lyman 515141s and Rapine 520375s. Alternating moulds allows cooling time and produces better bullets, but casting from single cavity moulds get 'old' pretty quick.

I'm working on a carbine load with the 375 Rapine, smokeless and duplex. Why duplex? I'm not into BPCR Silhouette, I'm a hunter and shooter. A couple of days ago, I put 22 duplex loads through my carbine in 5 shot strings - no blow tubing, no wiping. I fired the last two rds at a 200 yard 24" gong from the sitting position and hit it.

The bore looked as clean as it did after the first shot. Clean up was a few wet patches, a drying and oiling. That's why .....

[Joe Lansing]

    Hardtack, I"m with you re: duplex loads. My original Trap Door 45-70 loves duplex loads for accuracy above all others. It killed my first deer over 40 years ago using a duplex load. Yet there are "experts" who condemn duplex loads. So far I have seen no reputable evidence to support these claims. I originally learned about duplex loads from a Lyman Cast Bullet book. I also saw information in a copy of The Handloader's Digest. I was drawn to duplex loads to keep temperature and pressure down (a major cause of erosion along with jacketed bullets) in antique cartridge rifles, along with keeping fouling in control. I have no regrets.

                                                                      JL

[PJ Hardtack]

Joe

I've never read anything to the effect that duplex loads reduce temp or pressure - just cleaner burning. My guy feeling is that pressure might be slightly higher, but it would take lab work to prove it.

Steve Garbe is adamant about keeping BPCR Sil 'pure' with 100% BP loads because that is how it was done. But - the old BP was cleaner burning and produced higher pressure than the modern stuff.

I found a duplex recipe that utilizes 4.2 grs 5744 under 53-55 grs FFg. I like what I'm getting with 5 grs SR4759 and 60 FFg, but I'm going to try a load with 5744 for a 50-70 carbine load using both 375 and 450 gr bullets.. I'll report the results .....

[Joe Lansing]

    My comment about experts and duplex loads had nothing to do with keeping matches "pure". I myself am sort of a purest when it comes to hunting with muzzleloaders. I can't see "primitive" hunting with in-line rifles, scoped, and loaded with battery cup primers, pellets of powder, and saboted jacketed bullets. I prefer a side lock flint or percussion any day and round ball.I was referring to those who condemn duplex loads under any circumstances.
    Regarding pressure, you're probably right. Pressure is related to how much of whatever one loads in a cartridge. Temperatures however, I'm pretty sure are hotter with smokeless than with BP, but I can't remember where I learned that.

                                                   JL

[PJ Hardtack]

Historically, duplexing was actually done with ML target rifles as well as cartridge rifles.

If I shoot a string with smokeless loads, my barrel is no way near as warm as for the same number of rounds with BP. In Ned Robert's book on shooting breech loading single shot rifles, duplexing was said not to produce higher pressures than BP.

I feel the same way about in-line MLs - an abomination! They caused the cancellation of our Primitive Rifle hunting season due to claims of being capable of 200 yard killing power with a scope. The gov't wasn't smart enough to restrict the season to traditional side hammer rifles using patched ball and loose powder.

[Lumpy Grits]

A softer alloy(30:1)works wonders in these Shiloh's, much better than the "hardstuff".
Be carefully about using wheel weights these days as most, if not all, are made of Zinc now.
Cheers,
LG.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Amazing what some folks ... who consider themselves "expert" will say.

Other than polite greetings or small talk, I'd never listen to any other advice that idiot says.  The day that any lead alloy becomes harder than barrel steel is the day I give away all my firearms.

Sheesh!

[Joe Lansing]

    Does anyone was't to comment on steel jacketed bullets? There's lots of it out there in military ammo.

                                                                             JL

[Trailrider]

    Does anyone was't to comment on steel jacketed bullets? There's lots of it out there in military ammo.

                                                                             JL

There's no question that steel-jacketed bullets would cause some additional wear on a barrel, but unless you are planning on shooting a bunch of it, I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, the only steel jacketed slugs would be on odd-ball foreign military ammo.  Even armor piercing U.S. GI ammo doesn't expose the barrel to the mild steel penetrator directly.  I know it used to be said that some armorers would run several hundred M2AP rounds through M-1 Rifle barrels to "smooth them out".  But I would suggest that was more a matter of how many rounds were run through rather than the effect of the steel core on the hardness of the jacket material.
I somehow don't think I'd want to run a bunch of 750 gr. .50 BMG jacketed bullets through a .50-70 or .50-90 Sharps barrel...more for the effect on my shoulder than worrying about barrel wear. 

[cpt dan blodgett]

Amazing what some folks ... who consider themselves "expert" will say.

Other than polite greetings or small talk, I'd never listen to any other advice that idiot says.  The day that any lead alloy becomes harder than barrel steel is the day I give away all my firearms.

Sheesh!

Kinda depends on what grade diamond you roll the lead bullets in, and how much actually adheres to the surface I should think

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Kinda depends on what grade diamond you roll the lead bullets in, and how much actually adheres to the surface I should think

I reckon that might be true, 'tho I don't think that adding diamonds would constitute part of the "alloy" of lead. 

That'd sure smooth out a barrel, Cap'n. Dan!

 

[Trailrider]

I reckon that might be true, 'tho I don't think that adding diamonds would constitute part of the "alloy" of lead. 

That'd sure smooth out a barrel, Cap'n. Dan!

 

Would you have to get permission from de Beers to utilize diamonds in that manner? 

[cpt dan blodgett]

Was being kinda rediculus but seriously the only way any lead alloy commonly used to make bullets will wear a bore is if it is carryiing some kind of abrasive, like ya dropped on a garage floor, picked it up and loaded with all the sand and grit still on the bullet.

And as far as De Beers go, Guinness, but if you are out bud light will work.