Author Topic: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70  (Read 16231 times)

Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« on: January 08, 2012, 11:03:56 PM »
I know this has been discussed in another thread, but I don't/can't seem to find it.

As most people on the BROW site know, I have bought a Pedersolii .45-70 Rolling Block.

A friend of mine who usually reloads my .45 Schofields loaded me 50 rounds, but the diameter of the bullets at their base run from .452 to .458.

I have been told to slug the barrel to find out the diameter but am not that trusting of my vernier caliper use.

I also sent an email to Pedersoli to ask bore diameter and suggested bullet diameter.

If I remember correctly, the bore is .460 and the preferred booliit would have a .459 diameter ...

What does the room think?

BTW, here is a pic of the rifle:



My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

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Offline Abilene

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Offline john boy

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 08:27:56 AM »
Listed on the Cimarron site, are the 'factory standard' land and groove dimensions.  One must recognize that a broach cutter does not always hold the exact numbers because a cutter being made of metal will wear making the cuts smaller.  All barrel manufacturers will replace the cutter when normal wear exceeds the factory standards determined by a tolerance number.

This being said, slugging a bore is very easy ... a fishing sinker or round ball with soft lead is placed in the muzzle and then driven down the bore.  Here's an Internet 'how to' video ...

Quote
I have been told to slug the barrel to find out the diameter but am not that trusting of my vernier caliper use.
 
If one is inexperienced, one might want to use their computer to determine how to do 'thing's instead of just posting up a question.  In this example keying 'How to slug a rifle barrel' into their search engine will result in many explanations, such as ...
 

OK, Pedersoli standard specifications are: 450 lands and 457 grooves.  My actual land - groove dimensions on two Pedersoli 45-70's are:
**  450 - 454
**  450 - 455
So, I just resize the 460 or 461 base diameter bullets to 457, reloaded and have fun.  IMHO, the 'best' resizer is the Lee Lube Sizer because it pushes the bullet up through the die from the base of the bullet - not from the nose down as does the LYman H&I Lube Sizer ... which distorts the the axis of the bullet especially bullets cast from a soft alloy

http://www.factorysales.com/html/xcart/catalog/lubesize.html  ... And if you need a custom diameter resizing die, they too can be ordered from Lee Precision - call them

Shooting BPCR one has to remember that that bullet base needs to be 0.001 to 0.003 larger than the groove diameter to properly obturate when shot.  So as cast or resized bullets must be of the proper size otherwise poor accuracy will be obtained

OK Ellis, this is your morning lesson on how to slug a barrel and based on the results determine if bullets can be used as cast or need to be resized

Let us all know how you make out with the results of your morning lesson!  ;D
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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #3 on: Today at 10:31:12 AM »

Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 10:55:56 AM »
My Pedersoli made Navy Arms RB carbine 26 inch heavy octo barrel is .450 bore and .458 grove.
A .490 soft lead round ball will work for a slug.  Cerro safe chamber cast can get you info about chamber etc.  With a RB unless you remove breach block and hammer a long cast that has an inch or so of bore will be hard to get past the hammer.

Expect one could do a Cerro Safe cast of the muzzle as well.

Conventional wisdom seems to be .001 or .002 over groove diameter is the hot tip.
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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 12:14:00 PM »
Quote
One must recognize that a broach cutter does not always hold the exact numbers because a cutter being made of metal will wear making the cuts smaller. 

Is it being sugested that Pedersoli barrels are "cut rifled" rather than buttoned rifled?
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Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 12:20:31 PM »
talked about a Broach Cutter aka button used in riflng vs a single cutter used in cut rifling

Krieger web site has a pretty good discussion of the two techniques as it relates to thier Krieger - cut rifling barrels and New Criterion button/broach rifled barrels.
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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 12:29:53 PM »
I'm confused. Never heard the term "broach cutter" in the same sentence as a button. Button rifling doesn not remove any metal and the button can hold bore diameter for many thousands of barrels. Very little wear on the button itself, depending on barrel steel and lubrication oil used. ( Interesting to note that on a tour of the Savage facilities last summer, I had access to anything I requested, except the "secret" formula for the librication oil they use in button rifling....)

Cut rifling actually cuts one grove at a time and there is wear of the cutter involved. But good control of the machine cand keep tolerances to fantastic amounts. But it takes a long time and there are VERY few cut rifling machines in existance in the world.

This is why I would be surprised if Pedersoli was using cut rifling.

I must admit, the interior of my Pedersoli Sharps 1874 Benchrest and my Pedersoli 1871 Rolling Block is top quality. And both shoot as good as they look.
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Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 01:20:39 PM »
Where was my head, 3 guesses and 2 dont count.  Broach is a multi cutter stepped kinda thing that progressively cuts deeper grooves as it moves forward vs the button thing that essentially irons the grooves into the barrel.  Having said all that lots of folks seem to be calling the button a broach.
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Offline Ranch 13

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 02:23:24 PM »
Wad, for the most part the folks that do the best work with their Pederoli's shoot a bullet at least .459 diameter and most use a .460. The problems isn't so much the bore and groove diameter as it is the long freebore in the chamber the Italians use, the bigger bullet fits that chamber better and leads to better accuracy and less leading in the throat.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 07:28:10 PM »
...This is why I would be surprised if Pedersoli was using cut rifling....

I have heard one of the Cimarron guys, while explaining to someone the difference between the Armi-Sport and Pedersoli Sharps they carry, say that the Armi-Sport used button rifling and the Pedersoli used cut rifling.  I did not know what that meant technically other than the Pedersoli as a result had a better barrel.

One time some years ago a guy from Pedersoli came on the SASS Wire in response to some post and explained in great detail about how they made their barrels.  I don't remember any of it (some was over my head, anyway) but it was very impressive.

Offline john boy

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 08:40:01 PM »
Quote
Source: Dick Trenk
At Pedersoli all barrels are drilled and reamed but then we add a third step which is to HONE the bore hole to bring it up to the match grade tolerance of the final bore diameter.  Also the honing produces a much finer finish in the bore hole and this fine finish becomes the tops of your lands.....mirror finish affect before we start the broaches on their job of cutting all the grooves.
 
Also, we use two of these 5-6 foot long broaches on each rifle barrel.
The first broach brings the rifling up to within .0020" of the final dimension.  The second broach having 15 cutters brings the rifling up the last .0020" to the final dimension.
This second broach has the last three cutters of the exact same size.   As cutter #13 makes the final tiny cut it is worn a bit.  Eventually cutter #13 will no longer bring the groove up to the final diameter so cutter #14 which has been doing no work, comes into play and handles that final cut.
#14 eventually wears a bit and cutter #15 which has done no work up to this time, comes into play and takes over making the final cut.
 
Experience tells us when to remove the broaches and have them resharpened back to normal dimensions. Barrels are visually inspected using a borescope which projects the picture onto a large TV monitor.  Air gaging is performed to verify the rifling is within match grade tolerances (plus/minus .0002").

Note the word ... Broach!
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Offline rbertalotto

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 06:09:28 AM »
FANTASTIC! No wonder these Pedersoli barrels shoot so well. I had no idea they were using cut rifling. Considering the prices, amazing bargain!
Roy B
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Offline john boy

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 08:57:53 AM »
Quote
FANTASTIC! No wonder these Pedersoli barrels shoot so well. I had no idea they were using cut rifling.
Yes, match barrels!  And for the price, if you think Pedersoli barrels are accurate, I have an H&R Buffalo Classic with a factory Green Mountain barrel that is as accurate or better.  Have shot it at 1000 yds with very pleasing groups

My 1st ever BPCR range test was at 600yds, a 7 1/2" x 2 1/4" group with 3 holes that could be covered by a silver dollar.  Had 2 club members witness the group
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Offline R.T. Rangebum

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
Wad,

I have the same Roller that you do, and like it very much. I've been shooting mine in BPCR for the last two and a half years. The chamber, in my opinion is perfect. I load a Paul Jones .459 diameter, 540 grain Creedmore bullet #45001 lubed with SPG. I spoke to Mr. Jones on the phone and was ready to slug my bore but, he said "no need' seems the new Pedersoli single shots are all very consistent. My load is 69 grains of 1.5 F Swiss, with a .60 fiber wad from Walters wads, this produces very good accuracy out to 500 yards and very little to no leading. Depending on my ability that day I'm scoring from 17 to 27; we shoot in Kansas, VERY WINDY. Hope this helps.

Rangebum

Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2012, 03:02:36 PM »
Rangebum and everyone,

I get my next SS Check on Feb 1st (God Willing) and will have to wait for a box of Mark Whyte's .459 Postells until I can shoot him a check and he can send them back.

In the meantime I will have to concentrate on other projects, like getting my 1858 Remington Pistol and spare cylinder ready for competition ... and, if I can scrounge the use of a planer and joiner, make up a shooting box for the buffalo gun ....

TTFN,
My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

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Offline WaddWatsonEllis

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 02:39:56 AM »
Hi Y'all,

I just got my computer back .... had Windows 7 installed and had it 'souped up' with 2 gigs of RAM.

So the Remington is back and I just have to wait for March to start shooting .... I am probably going to get some Postell Bullets in .459" diameter ... What does the room think? 

I had someone send me all he had left of the Postells, but they range from .452-.458 inches ... so I think I may send them back ....
but first I am going to check the accuracy of my little vernier guage ... and check my accuracy at using one ... *S*

My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 09:36:51 AM »
.459s should work
right now I am trying the SAECO 645, kinda like a 485 grain postell out of my Armi Sharps and my Navy Arms (pedersoli) RB really heavy barreled carbine
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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 09:58:54 AM »
Hi Y'all,

I had someone send me all he had left of the Postells, but they range from .452-.458 inches ... so I think I may send them back ....
but first I am going to check the accuracy of my little vernier guage ... and check my accuracy at using one ... *S*


Get a digital caliper that reads down to a 'thou.  I just got one from Amazon for about $15 + shipping.  ( I have a good vernier, but I need a "geezer-glass" to read it.)  Now you are getting serious, you will need accurate measuring tools.
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Offline KAGE

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Re: Pedersoli Bore Diameters in .45-70
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 06:50:38 PM »
 I have a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 and the factory ammo flies all over the paper.  Does anyone offer pre=loaded ammo with a bullet large enough to shoot well?  I don't have the facilities or equipment right now to cast and roll my own.  HELP!...Thank you

 

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