80 yard targets

[Wagon Box Willy]

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As you know I'm having some problems chambering the rounds I'm making.  I am not sure if it is because of fouling, bullet, or COAL.  

I did get to shoot some rounds today at 80yards which is about the longest I can do in my back yard.  The day was cold, windy and dark.  

The target on the below is 6 shots of 65gr of KIK 2f, compressed about .140 with an over powder card, Winchester Large Pistol Primer seated with copy paper, new sized W-W brass and  Lyman Postell bullet....blowing between shots.  I'm pretty happy with this mostly because I am just learning how to shoot accurately and have maybe 25 rounds under my belt.  I'm pretty sure the two hits to the upper right have more to do with me pulling the rifle than the gun or the load.



This next target is with 67gr of powder compressed about .180.  At this point I was aggravated, my hands were cold from fighting with the bullets and trying to get them to chamber so I quit after 3.  Again I'm pretty happy cuz I was on the black even with everything else going on.



There were actually 2 rounds that I just couldn't chamber and one of them I had to knock out with a dowel and hammer.  I need to find out what's going on!

Thanks
  Willy

[john boy]

I need to find out what's going on!

Willy, the same concept applies - one can't put 10 lbs in a 5 lb shoe.
What are the the COL of your round, especially the ones you had to knock out with a dowel?
The SAMMI maximum COL is 2.550 ... where the bullet is not engraved by the lands.  So if you want to continue to seat the bullet out into the bore --- back off on the length.  Just measure the engraving on the pictures you posted and back off from there.

When you seat a reload with the bullet out, you should be able to seat the round with thumb pressure and the round able to be extracted without 'horsing' the extractor ... which if you continue to do will cause a broken extractor

Next question ... What reloading reference books do you presently own?

[Wagon Box Willy]

John boy,  That is helpful.  I thought I was seating it at the correct COL based on the instructions you posted.  my current COL is 2.805.  I made sure all the bullets were of the same length.  What I just did was pull two bullets out of their cartridges, one which would seat and one which wouldn't.  I swapped them int each others cartridge.  The bullet which wouldn't seat still wont and the other will so it is not a cartridge problem, it appears to be a bullet issue.

So let me ask you this.  If I was to seat the bullet to get a COL of 2.550 my compression on 65gr would be .395.
That seems like a lot to me and to my newbie mind says that I cant put 70gr in the case which I have read a lot of people do with Postell bullets???

I'm going to email Montana Bullet and see what they have.

Thanks
  Willy

 

[john boy]

Willy - you didn't answer my question --- What reloading reference books do you presently own?
Your rounds - you have 2 reloading options:
1.  Compress the powder so the bullet when seated gives you a COL of 2..550.  Shot them any see how they group
2.  Reduce the COL of the Postell bullet WITH LESS ENGRAVING so it can be seated with just thumb pressure. Your rounds will be OK if the engraving is just 1/8" of the length that you presently have them

 Based on the the picture of the end of the case sticking out of the chamber I know without a doubt that your loaded rounds are too long .  Compare the length of the case sticking out of the chamber to the length of the engraving on the rounds int the picture.  it's obvious the COL of these rounds are too long ... BTW, what is the COL of these rounds?


If you are concerned about the extra compression - which is not a major concern - load 6 rounds with 68gr of powder with just a wax paper wad between the powder column and the base of the bullet

[Wagon Box Willy]

John Boy,

Sorry, missed the last sentence   The only reloading manual I own is the Lee second edition modern reloaders manual which I know is pretty much useless but it did show the OAL for the 45/70 govt with a 530gr bullet at 2.830 which kinda lines up with what I measured using your COL method.  I only shoot 2 calibers, 45 Colt and now 45/70 and only BP.

What I'm doing now with the 65 gr load is compressing and fitting into a dirty chamber until I get a round that sticks out about an eight of a inch and will chamber with my thumb.  It looks like that may be a 2.700 COL.

By the way I found a post you made a year ago about compression, opened my eyes as to the amount which could be used.

Thanks
  Willy

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Offline John Boy

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Re: black powder compression
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2010, 07:04:47 PM »
the Black Powder Cartridge News -2009 Fall - "Some Black Powder Compression Data" article by Bob Woodfill:
Caliber - 45-70
Lyman 457124
Constant volume of FFg powder used
Compression tested: 0" - 1/8" - 1/4" - 3/8" and 1/2"
Best 3 Shot Groups 100yds ... 5 shot groups were tested also, with the same compression values except for Goex (1/4") and Schuetzen (1/2")
Goex - 0.62" with 1/8" compression
Goex Express - 0.26" with 1/4" compression
Schuetzen - 0.61" with 1/4" compression
Swiss - 0.56" with 1/2" compression
KIK - 0.65" with 0" compression

PS: It pays in spades to buy a subscription of BPC News magazine to find loading data tests like this and much more!
Logged
Regards
John Boy

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[Wagon Box Willy]

Willy - you didn't answer my question --- What reloading reference books do you presently own?
Your rounds - you have 2 reloading options:
1.  Compress the powder so the bullet when seated gives you a COL of 2..550.  Shot them any see how they group
2.  Reduce the COL of the Postell bullet WITH LESS ENGRAVING so it can be seated with just thumb pressure. Your rounds will be OK if the engraving is just 1/8" of the length that you presently have them

Thanks John boy and all, I think I have it.
COL is 2.700 70gr compressed .333
Sorry for all the trouble,
Thanks
  Willy

[john boy]

BIG DIFFERENCE.  That's all you need.  Willy, don't believe it's been brought up, so ... seating a bullet out and engraving it is for better concentric presentation to the bore

[Ranch 13]

Willy, when you get ahold of Montana Bullet works order the saeco 645 bullets, they're a much better bullet in the 45-70 than the postell.
 I'm pretty convinced those postells you have are damaged, specifically the noses have been scrunched either during the sizing/lubing or the loading process.
 You may want to dive into that barrel with your best lead mining equipment, as from those noses cutting the rifling, they are most likely stripping lead along the way down the barrel.

[john boy]

Willy, this a a Postell bullet.  Note the driving band at the bottom of the nose.  The pictures of your bullets don't show the driving band.  As Ranch said - they are 'scrunched'.  Post a picture of one of your Postell bullets that are in the box before any thing has been done to them


Am curious also - if a new bullet has a driving band are you seating the bullet with the driving band below the mouth of the case?

[john boy]

This is what a 45-70 reload with 70grs powder and a Postell bullet seated out at the top of the 1st grease groove band looks like with the nose just touching the leade.  Note the driving band.  The COL is 2.990

[Wagon Box Willy]

John boy,
Slim describes this as a Postell style bullet so it may not actually be the Lyman mold.  It certainly has a shorter nose than your Postell.

[cpt dan blodgett]

What is the dimension right in front of the 1st Driving Band and the 1st driving band?

[Wagon Box Willy]

What is the dimension right in front of the 1st Driving Band and the 1st driving band?

.4515 and .459

Willy

[cpt dan blodgett]

That should explain the engraving on the bullet as it should be .0015 larger than the basic bore.

Will measure my MBW Saeco 645s tonight when I get home.  Think they are caliber or slightly sub-caliber just before the 1st driving band.  Know they are sized to .459

I also got some of the MBW Saeco 881 500 grainers in .459

[john boy]

Willy, set those bullets aside.  Your reloading days are deferred until you get some other bullets, like those suggested by Ranch.
The when you are shooting MOA and getting bored and have an itch to do some paper patching - pull them bullets out - resize them down and have at it

[Wagon Box Willy]

cpt dan, lookin forward to those measurements.

Willy

[cpt dan blodgett]

.448 just in front of the driving band.

Made us some rounds today with that bullet seated out where the driving band should just touch the lands.  I have to use slight thumb pressure to seat.  The driving band does not show rifling marks.  I am thinking a tad of the bell is left and I am actually taking that out as I chamber.   Just checked with calipers.  Case mouth .482.  Hit just a tad with FL Sizing die, without decapping pin now .480 and fit right in.  Top of case just covers bottom of 2nd driving band.

I loaded 5 rounds with 68.2 grains scheutzen and a .062 veggie wad.  This required .040 compression.
Loaded 5 rounds with the same 68.2 grains and added 2nd .062 veggie wad bringin me up to .102 compression
Did not want to stack anymore wads so increase powder charge to 70.2 with .062 wad required 115 compression for 5 rounds.
Added 2nd wad incresing compresion to .177.  Will see how these fly in AM.

[Otter]

Wagon Box Willy,

I just measured one of my Lyman 457132 Postell bullets (the same one John Boy has pictured)
Just in front of the driving band the OD is 0.447 inches
The driving band OD is 0.458 inches
The base of the bullet is 0.460 inches

I also measured one of my Lyman 457125 Government bullets I have been shooting for almost 15 years.
Just in front of the driving band the OD is 0.447 inches
The driving band OD is 0.458 inches
The base of the bullet is 0.460 inches

Besides the obvious difference in the shape of the nose, the only difference in dimensions between the two moulds are from the base of the bullet to the top of the driving band and the OAL of the bullet. (The lube grooves vary a touch from one to the other, but should have zero effect on loading and chambering.)

Don't know if this will help, but that's what mine cast at.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Thanks, that seems to be the issue, my bullets are just too big to set out.

Willy

[cpt dan blodgett]

Kinda rough day at the range with the sharps.  Did not seem to matter much what the load was today 6 - 8 inches at 100.  Any one but the first round after cleaning the chamber was very hard to seat.  Generally could not seat unless I at least brushed the chamber.

MBW lubed these saeco 645s with SPG I believe.  Got some pretty hard fouling about 3/4 out the barrel.
using the 70.20 grain load tomorrow with a lube cookie in the mix.  See if that does not help.

Wrapped tape around 30-06 case last light to bring diameter op to 480-82 range.  Stuck it in chamber backwards pushed gently till it stopped.  Looks like my chamber is something like 2.135.  Cerro Safe from Roto Metal 1 lb just shy of 20 bucks delivered.

I did have some success with the 457 Roundball gallery load for Plainsman
Ist 5 rounds at 25 yards, 6 o'clock hold on bull

[Ranch 13]

If you're not using a blowtube between shots then you need to wipe the bore between shots or you will run into some serious fouling problems.
 I'ld also be suspicious of some severe leading issues from shooting thru that hard fouling.

[Wagon Box Willy]

Is using a blow tube or wiping just a personal preference or is one proven more effective than the other?  I've been using the tube but have a Delrin wiping rod and arsenal patches on order from Arizona Sharpshooters just to try out that method as well.

Willy

[Ranch 13]

Mostly it depends on the load and  shooter preference.
 Most folks don't use the tube properly. You have to get the air from way down deep in your lungs so it's moist, you also have to stay hydrated so you have plenty of moisture.
 Wiping presents it's own set of problems and you have to work on your technigue to keep group sizes small. You can smuck up good groups just as easily with a bad wiping routine as any thing else.

[Otter]

Thanks, that seems to be the issue, my bullets are just too big to set out.

Willy

Actually, Willy, your bullets are just too big, period. You are engraving so high above the driving band because the .4515 diameter is bigger than the bore. I would get some different bullets from another source. There are a number of them (sources) out there.

As Ranch has said, if you are compressing your loads at the same time you are seating the bullet, stop that process and get a compression die/plug. If that is not what you are doing, it IS the bullet itself that is the problem.

Report back . . . and, yes, that is an order .

[Ranch 13]

Otter we've already qeeried him on that, they're coming out of the box from the guy that sent them to him that way.
 Either a goofy mould or somebody got a bit ham handed running them thru the lubrisizer.....