Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 30, 2014, 08:08:58 am

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1873 (Moderator: Major 2)  |  Topic: Black Powder in the 44-40 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Black Powder in the 44-40  (Read 26447 times)
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« on: November 15, 2011, 01:35:30 pm »


I have experimented with b.p. loaded ammunition in the 44-40 for about 10 years now and have a good idea of what works well (good accuracy after many repeated shots without cleaning / blow tubing) and what doesn't ("fouled out" barrels after a dozen rounds with accuracy going downhill soon after).  

Also, I discovered the combination(s) that will replicate the original 1,300 f.p.s. ballistics with very good accuracy.

All of my b.p. cartridges have been handloads, trying different bullet styles, lubes, and powders (Goex, Schuetzen, Diamondback, KIK & Swiss.)

I will go into detail on my findings in another post(s) in a few days.

Based on what I have learned, if I was asked to recommend the best 44-40 black powder ammunition that one could purchase, I would suggest  http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158172&CAT=4438

Rowdy Fulcher mentioned that "I plan on taking my NEW 1873 out for a little shooting this weekend . I have a couple boxes of Black Dawge ammo will shoot them and hopefully will run a few over my chronie . Want to get a Deer with the 1873 using a back powder load . We have talked about smokeless loads but we were trying to duplicate the original black powder . Maybe we need to start looking at black powder."

I will be interested to see what velocity they are loaded to and what his comments are. Goex shows a velocity of 735 f.p.s. but that would be in a pistol barrel. Early 44-40 b.p. ammunition was said to develop 950 f.p.s in a pistol so it will be interesting to see how the Black Dawge ammo performs in a rifle barrel.

Awhile back I did purchase some Black Dawge bullets for testing but I'll save my comments until Rowdy posts his evaluation of their ammunition.

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Coal Creek Griff
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 476


With Cheyenne Luke


« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 01:46:13 pm »

I'm looking forward to hearing your recommendations.  I'm sorry that I wasn't able to take advantage of the recent group buy bullet mould--I have to budget my modest "reloading" account and that would have pretty much taken all I had at the time.  I would have been left looking fondly at the mould with no funds to actually use it much...  It sounds like it is making some good bullets.

CC Griff
Logged

Jesse Emmett "Coal Creek" Griffith--My grandfather

BOLD #921
BOSS #196
Rowdy Fulcher
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2112



« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 09:17:12 pm »

Howdy
Deer season is in and didn't get a chance to work with the Black Dawge ammo . Will shoot and tell after Deer season . The weather has been less than desirable for Hunting . Seems as if the wind isn't blowing 30 mph then it's raining . I have seen a nice Buck ,but he keeps giving me the slip . Season runs until next Sunday , and the weather forecast for next weekend is Rain .
Logged
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 05:33:01 pm »

Where to start ……

Back in 1875, Doc Pardee fired 30 factory black powder cartridges at a target 110 yards from the muzzle of his then new 1873 Winchester.  He commented that “The firing was done without wiping, which proves the Winchester steady in her performance…”All 30 rounds were inside of a 4” target.  Pretty darn good shooting at that distance. Grin

Fast forward to 2011…

Current black powder ammunition loaded with real black powder, not a substitute.
I find 2 sources on the internet –
Black Dawge -  http://www.blackdawgecartridge.com/cgi-bin/bdstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=bd_ammo.html&ORDER_ID=713247691
 
Buffalo Arms – http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158172&CAT=4438

If anyone knows of another source, please post.

Differences between the two offerings –
Black Dawge – uses Black Dawge bullets (see below) and Goex Black Powder.
Velocity is listed at 735 f.p.s. in a revolver so I would think close to 1,100 f.p.s. in a rifle.

Buffalo Arms – uses 427098 bullets (see below) and Swiss Black Powder.
This ammunition would be the closest thing to the original 44-40 b.p. cartridge since it uses a copy of the same bullet and a premium black powder similar to what was used in early factory b.p. cartridges.  Velocity would likely be close to the original ballistics of 1,300 f.p.s.

Other than that, one would have to reload ……  

Here are currently available black powder 44-40 bullets.  The first three can be purchased but the 43-215C would be a do it yourself casting proposition only using the Accurate Arms mold ….at least at this time. It follows the profile of the 427098 and produces the best results at longer distances like the 427098.



BULLET SOURCES:
Black Dawge –  http://www.blackdawgecartridge.com/cgi-bin/bdstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=bd_bullets.html&ORDER_ID=713247691

427098 – http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157239&CAT=4135

Big Lube – http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

Accurate Molds – www.accuratemolds.com
note: the 427098 shown in the pic was produced from an Accurate 43-210B which is an improved 427098 developed by  "Fairshake".  It has flat bottomed lube grooves that hold a bit more lube and is .429" diameter.

BLACK POWDERS:
Goex is likely the type most carried by most gunshops that carry b.p. ….at least in my area. Other powders are Schuetzen, Swiss, KIK, & Diamondback.

Goex, Schuetzen, Diamondback - The “Big Lube” and Accurate 43-215C bullets work the best with these powders due to their larger lube capacity. Subsequently, they will shoot many rounds in a repeating rifle accurately without fouling out (hard ring of fouling starting at the muzzle and extending back into the barrel).

In my experience, the two lube grooved bullets will typically “foul out” in a 24” barrel after a dozen rounds with accuracy going downhill after that.  Perhaps they would do better in a 20” tube for sustained firing.

Swiss, KIK – These powders produce a softer fouling and work very well with all 4 bullets.

Powders can be purchased in smaller qty’s from:
Powder Inc. - http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm
Back Creek Gun Shop - http://www.blackpowderva.com/
Graf & Sons - http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501?

ACCURACY is first rate with good b.p. ammunition. In my experience, it can be  more accurate than smokeless.  Best 10 shot group to date at 100 yards has been just a bit over 2”.  Grin

Rowdy,
When you have a chance to test the Black Dawge ammunition we would appreciate hearing about your results.

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Rowdy Fulcher
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2112



« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 03:07:12 am »

w44wcf
Sorry I haven't tested the Black Dawge , but if we have a decent day during the Thanksgiving Holidays will try it then . I really want to take a Deer using black in my 1873 . I just got the short rifle and haven't shot it much . So I've been Hunting with my half round barrel rifle . It's  a real tack driver .
Logged
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 07:33:47 am »

Rowdy Fulcher,
Looking forward to seeing your test results.  I found this ballistics chart on Black Dawge cartridges.
http://www.stewartdawge.com/ballistics.htm

They show two powders used - Goex Cowboy and KIK FFG with velocities of 1,025 fps and 1,017 fps respectively.  Based on that data, they must be loading closer to 30 grs rather than 40 (?).

Happy Thanksgiving!
w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 4692



« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 03:13:35 pm »

For many years now I have had one "go-to" bullet for all of my .44s.  It is the RCBS bullet for the .44-40, the 44-200-FN.

https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=3328&route=C12J059

I leave it unsized for .44 RM and 11.6mm German Ordnance revolver, and sized .427 for my re-lined  Win model '73 and old model Vaqueros.  It doesn't look like it has deep enough grooves, but it has been my experience that it has enough as long as barrels are in pristine condition.  I haven't shot the rifle at 100 yards recently, but my recollection is that 4 inch groups were normal using a Lyman tang sight.  I also noticed that Mike Venturino used this bullet in published tests of various .44 cartridges and generally it was the most accurate bullet or very close to it.  With only two cavities, high volume is not usual, but not a real handicap as I alternate two moulds when casting, and using different moulds still gets you a pile of shiny new bullets pretty quickly.
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
PJ Hardtack
American Plainsmen Society
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2281


« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2011, 06:30:32 pm »

My 44-40 mould is the Lyman 200/427666 (mark of the beast?) double cavity, simply because it was on the shelf at the shop at a fair price. I've been quite happy with it for both 44-40 and .44 Spl. Smokeless or BP, I use SPG when sizing/lubing.

When casting, I use the two moulds method as well. This allows cooling time, prevents overheating a mould and getting 'feathers'; and I get better bullets in the bargain.
Logged

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2011, 10:42:42 pm »

Sir Charles,
The RCBS 200 is also my favorite smokeless bullet for the 44-40 closely followed by the Magma 200. 

The 427098 works well also but was designed to be supported by a capacity load of black powder since it has no crimp groove.  The Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) will put in a crimp groove in the crimping process  which works well but I have pretty much relegated the 427098 to cartridges loaded with black powder or a capacity load of RL7.  Grin
 


For whatever reason, I have not gotten the accuracy with the 429666 that I have with the other bullets. Groups typically run at least 2X to 3X larger (3" vs 1 to 1 1/2" @ 50 yards) and the bullet fits the barrel well.  I have tried a number of powders / charge weights but to no avail. 

PJ Hardtack,  glad to hear that it is working well for you.

Regarding the single lube groove RCBS 200, Magma 200, Lyman 429666, the only powder that works for many repeated rounds in a 24" barrel has been Swiss and possibly the new lot of KIK (more tetsing to be done).  But then again, my quest is for longer range accuracy (100+ yards)  The 427098 really shines there as does the 43-215C. Grin

w44wcf   
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
PJ Hardtack
American Plainsmen Society
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2281


« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2011, 12:04:31 pm »

My Lyman 427666 bullets are reserved for BP use due to the PITA of casting and sizing/lubing. I use commercial bullets for all else.
I enjoy shooting a lot more than casting/sizing/lubing. My time is worth more to me.

I was at the range yesterday with my consecutively #'d 44-40 Taylor's Remington conversions. Load was a commercial 'Magma' 205 gr over 6 grs Red Dot. These are big guns that weigh 5 ozs. more than a Remington .44 cap & ball. Recoil is nil, triggers superb.

When I got bored shooting 1-1/2" groups at 15 yds, 2" groups at 25 yds, I started ringing the 100 yd 12" x 18" gong. All off hand.
Often when people report groups, they were fired from the bench. I discount accuracy claims made from the bench as I EXPECT my guns to shoot well from the bench. If they don't, I don't own them.
Logged

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to others and I require the same from them."  John Wayne
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2011, 10:35:17 am »

I really enjoy shooting the NRA Cowboy Silhouette game. The 100 meter ram target is 6" high, so I am looking for the most accurate black powder load in my rifles.

Most of my shooting is done off hand, but in order to determine which b.p (or smokeless) load groups the best at that distance, I have spent a fair amount of time testing different recipes at the bench.

If ones goal is engaging larger targets, then accuracy standards do not have to be as precise. I enjoy doing that as well and have loads that are not as accurate as the ones I use for NRA Cowboy Silhouette.

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Jubal Wilson
American Plainsmen Society
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 60



« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 01:35:04 am »

w44wcf
I too greatly enjoy the NRA Cowboy Silhouette game and when I lived in the Denver area I shot that game from the time they first started it at the Watkins range. I used my Uberti Winchester 1873 for all but the last couple of years when I used my Uberti Winchester 1876. People laughed at me when I brought my 1873 to the matches but when I could compete with the high power lever rifles they quit laughing. Almost every 55 lb Ram at 200 M that I hit went down. I moved to the Black Hills of South Dakota in 2009 and Cowboy Silhouette is the thing I miss the most along with BPCRS.

I have been following your efforts to design the new Accurate 43-215C and almost bought that mold. However I like the design of the Lyman 427098 so much that I went with the 43-220C (429-220C) which is like the 427098 with bigger lube grooves and a crimp groove. I have the 427098 mold but as you say they reduced the lube grooves so much that it wont due for Black Powder. Anyway I got the mold on Tuesday and loaded up 30 rounds with 37.0 grains of 1.5 Swiss and new bullet sized to .428 and lubed with SPG. I cast these using 1:16 alloy and it weights 219 grains. I was going to test them today but the wind was blowing so hard it would have been a waste of time and effort. We don't have a rifle range here yet so I just go out in the forest and find a spot. If it doesn't snow tonight and the wind slows down I will go out tomorrow and let you know the results.
Jubal
Logged

Jubal Wilson

When a man loses his dreams he becomes a wanderer in the wasteland of human existence.
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 09:36:31 am »

Jubal,

Glad to hear of your success with your '73 in Cowboy Silhouette. It is inspiring to hear of a vintage cartridge and rifle besting some of the modern rifle shooters. NEAT!  Grin    


Glad to hear that you purchased the Accurate 43-220C mold, and that you are using SWISS powder with it. As you indicated, it follows the same design as the 427098 (original 44-40 bullet) as offered by Accurate Molds (43-210B) which was inspired by "Fairshake" who followed the 427098 design, but with more uniform square bottomed lube grooves and a slightly larger diameter to fit current 44-40 barrels.

I don't have that mold (at least not yet) but an email aquaintance of mine really liked the 43-210B but wanted to use it both with smokeless and black powder and had the crimp groove added. The additional weight is also a nice benefit.  

I have tested SWISS 1 1/2 with the 43-210B and 38 grs. by weight produced a shade over 1,300 f.p.s., so your load of 37 grs would pretty much duplicate original 44-40 ballistics.

The 43-215C was designed to fill a niche for a longer range 44-40 bullet that would work (not foul out) with Goex, Schuetzen and Diamondback. Thankfully, it has proven to do that very well. Grin

Looking forward to your test report........

w44wf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Jubal Wilson
American Plainsmen Society
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 60



« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 08:52:22 pm »

w44wcf,
Well the wind died down a little so I went out to shoot the new Accurate 429-220C. It was a disaster. I cleaned the barrel real good and finished with Windex /vinegar to be sure all the oil was gone. I started at 100 yards but the weeds were so high I was having a hard time seeing the target. At 50 yards I finally got the Marbles tang sight set and started shooting a string of 10. All over the place. The second set of 10 was the same 6 to 7 inch groups. In all 27 shots with no cleaning or blow tube. I thought maybe something was loose in the rifle so I cleaned the barrel real good and fired some smokeless loads. Two ten shot 1 1/2 inch groups with two different loads so nothing was wrong with the rifle.

The BP load was 37.0 gr Swiss 1.5 compressed .060 while seating the 219 gr Accurate 429-220C cast of 1:16 alloy sized to .428 and lubed with SPG. For this load I used Federal 155 mag primers. The barrel slug mikes .4275.

I will have to keep working on this because I want to get back to BP only in my 1873 and 1876.

I know that you have had success with the 43-210B but have you worked with the 43-215C enough to declare it a resounding success? If so do you know anyone with that mold that would sell me about a 100 so that I could test them as well?

Thanks for all your contributions to this forum and others. I have learned a lot from you.
Jubal
Logged

Jubal Wilson

When a man loses his dreams he becomes a wanderer in the wasteland of human existence.
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 09:07:26 am »

Jubal,
Sorry to hear of your not so good results with the 43-220C & Black powder.  Since it shoots good with smokeless, one would think that it should do as well with Swiss.....

I have always used the milder CCI 300 or Rem 2 1/2 primers with Swiss since it is moist burning. Perhaps the magnum primer being somewhat hotter is having an affect on the fouling(?).  I know that Mike Venturino uses magnum primers in the 44-40 but with Goex powder.

I have some 43-220C bullets that were sent to me by the fellow that owns the mold. I'll load 10 with your recipe except using the 2 1/2 Remington primer and see what happens. The weather is supposed to be fairly good this Thursday so I plan to try them then and will report back.

The 43-215C has been shooting well for me with Goex and another fellow that has been using it, also with Goex, told me he is getting 2"-3" groups at 100 yards.  I have not tried it with Swiss since the bullet was designed to carry the additional lube needed to run with the heavier fouling Goex.  I'll send you a PM.

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 12:08:32 pm »

Jubal,
I had a chance to test the 43-220C / 37 Swiss 1 1/2 F combination yesterday. 

Bullets were 12.5 BHN /  lube SPG / Primers - Rem. 2 1/2 / Brass - R-P

Powder was settled into the case by dumping it slowly about 4" above the powder funnel.

Bullets were seated and crimped with an RCBS die.

My club's 50 yard range was closed so I set a couple of targets @ 100 yards.

I fired two groups of 5 shots each. 

100 yards......
Group 1 -  2.38"  (4 in 1.57")
Group 2 -  2.26"

Thankfully, they shot aok.  You might try a milder primer like the Rem 2 1/2 or CCI 300 to see what difference that would make.

Good luck,

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Jubal Wilson
American Plainsmen Society
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 60



« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 09:13:34 pm »

w44wcf,
Good to hear that you had good results with the Accurate 43-220C bullet. I discovered the reason for my dismal results posted above. I accidentally filled my luber-sizer with candle wax instead of SPG. That would definitely explain the poor results. I melted the wax out of the grooves and will relube with SPG and try again. I had a feeling that it was not the bullet that was the problem. I will post again when I get more results.
Jubal
Logged

Jubal Wilson

When a man loses his dreams he becomes a wanderer in the wasteland of human existence.
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2011, 11:22:43 am »

Jubal,
That pretty much explains the dismal results of your first trial!
SPG will be a group tightener for sure!

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Marshal Deadwood
SHOOTER FOR HIRE
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1365



WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2011, 02:40:44 pm »

I like SPG. I've tried some other lubes...and have a recipe for some..but for all it cost I like SPG. Time tested and works good.

Deadwood
Logged

w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 10:09:18 pm »

Just to recap a bit........

Prior to 1894, cartridges were all loaded with black powder. Beginning in late 1894, smokeless powders made their appearance, and even though factory b.p. cartridges were offered with smokeless, the factories continued to offer black powder loadings up until the late 1930's when they were discontinued.

I have found that Swiss is about the closest equivalent we have to the excellent b.p.'s of a century + ago. I had done a bit of research and posted information in this thread a few years back........
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=9f3ed090e0ef271d9e56e43d2752b86a&topic=13.0

About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to obtain some early W.R.A. CO. 44 W.C.F. cartridges and was able to compare the b.p. contained in those cartridges to the ones we have today.  I dissected the cartridges, annealed the cases, replaced the primers with current ones, placed the powder back into the cases and used bullets from a Lyman 427098 mold (copy of the original bulllet). Lube was SPG.

Long story short, the early b.p. used in those cartridges had the ability, with the 2 lube grooved bullet, to launch many bullets accurately without fouling out the barrel (hard ring of fouling developing at the muzzle and extending back into the barrel).
The only other powder able to do that was SWISS. Cartridges loaded with Goex, Schuetzen and Elephant would foul out the barrel in 12 rounds or less with accuracy degrading rapidly**. By comparison, Swiss would run for 50+ rounds (most fired at one time) with no “foul out” or loss of accuracy.  The current lot of KIK powder appears to have the same ability as Swiss in my limited testing of that powder. More to be done......

These days, 36 grs of Swiss 2F in modern brass with the 427098 replicates the original ballistics and shoots very well. Not much compression is required either.

** (Goex and the other powders work fine with the “big lube” bullet and also the Accurate 43-215C due to their additional lube capacity.) 
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40897.0.html

Rowdy,
I heard from a fellow who had tried the Black Dawge 44-40 b.p. cartridges and he said that they fouled out his rifle barrel in less than 12 rounds and leaded his barrel somewhat.  Hopefully you will have better results.

w44wcf
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
john boy
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1318



« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 06:50:52 pm »

Original 44-40 load ... might want to try 39gr FFFg and a 200gr bullet.  That will be about 1180 fps
Logged

Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR
Rowdy Fulcher
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2112



« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2011, 02:05:10 pm »

Howdy
The weather was nice today so I was able to shoot my short rifle . I used my Goex ammo . My first 3 round shot group was high but the group size was good about an inch at fifty yards . the next group was about the same . the next group was getting larger ,about a inch and a half .the next group was larger. I had shot 12 rounds and the accuracy was starting to go to crap . I shot a total of 24 rounds with the last group being maybe6 plus inches . When I got home I cleaned my rifle and it was fairly fast clean up . If you are using this for a Hunting round it will be ok AS LONG as you don't shot over 10 rounds . If you are going to shoot lots of ammo you might want to take a rod and a few patches , you will need them . I didn't shoot these over a chronograph but would guess them at about a 1000 fps .
Logged
Coal Creek Griff
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 476


With Cheyenne Luke


« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2011, 04:07:51 pm »

Rowdy:

Can you remind me which bullet you're using?

Thanks for the report.

CC Griff
Logged

Jesse Emmett "Coal Creek" Griffith--My grandfather

BOLD #921
BOSS #196
Rowdy Fulcher
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2112



« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2011, 07:16:02 pm »

Howdy
The ammo was the Black Dawge . They use a 2 lube ring bullet . They also use SPG lube , I think that was what they told me .
Logged
w44wcf
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 972



« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 07:52:38 am »

Rowdy,
Thank you for the range report.  Your experience with the Black Dawge ammo (Goex powder + 2 lube groove bullet) is pretty similar to the results I have gotten with the same combination in reloads using the same components.  Another user of Black Dawge 44-40 b.p. ammunition that I have corresponded with reported similar findings.   

It is indeed unfortunate that Goex / Black Dawge did not use a single lube groove bullet holding more lube in their ammunition in combination with their powder. The performance would be have been much better.  I wonder if Goex / Black Dawge even tested their own ammunition ?. If they did, then their perfmance criteria must have been pretty low, unless, perhaps, they only tested in pistol barrels.......

This ammunition is definitely sub par from what the original b.p. 44-40 factory ammunition provided. In addition to running trouble free with continued fine accuracy for a minimum of 30 rounds (Doc Pardee's target - 1875 Winchester catalog), it produced 1,300 f.p.s. which is 30% greater than the Black Dawge ammo if your estimate of the 1,000 f.p.s. is correct.   

Today, it appears that the closest b.p. factory 44-40 ammo to the original is the ammo sold by Buffalo Arms which uses the correct bullet (427098) and  is loaded with Swiss powder which has similar characteristics of the early black powders.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=158172&CAT=4438
Other than that, one would have to reload his own b.p. ammunition.. 

I have found that, the two lube groove bullet (427098)  run very well when pushed by Swiss (sub 3" groups at 100 yards after 40+ rounds have been fired with no cleaning).  Early testing of the latest lot of KIK powder indicates that it may do as well.....

w44wcf           
Logged

aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
NRA Life Member
.22 W.C.F., .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F., .45 Colt Cartridge Historian
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1873 (Moderator: Major 2)  |  Topic: Black Powder in the 44-40 « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.087 seconds with 21 queries.