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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: The 45-75, any thoughts? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: The 45-75, any thoughts?  (Read 6066 times)
Slowhand Bob
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« on: November 15, 2011, 08:57:26 am »


Guys, I am hoping that decision time may be getting close and I would like to try and reach a final decision as to caliber.  It has always been set that I wanted to shoot black powder in the Uberti 28" barrel with a straight stock but I have been a bit soft on the caliber choice.  I understand that the 45-60 is probably the easiest and cheapest route for ammunition/ reloading while the 45-75 would offer the most challenges for ammunition acquisition.  I guess in the end I really prefer the 45-75  but fear that I might be making a mistake.  My most frequent use will be mid-distance target shooting, with hunting/killing as only a distant possibility.  Just in case, I will ask, was the 45-75 actually a decent caliber for the large buffalo or beef cattle sized animals?  I think Venturino(sp?) recommended a different caliber for the largest American animals.
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larryo_1
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 10:09:12 am »

As far as I am concerned, the 45-75 is what TR used successfully and that was good enough for me.  As far as brass acquisition is concerned, Jamison makes some mighty fine brass and is properly head-stamped.  You can make your own out of 348 brass too if that would be your choice.  That was what I did when I got first started with this caliber.  Bertram makes brass also but it costs like hell and not worth the expense when the other options are on the table.  That is my own opinion however having got some of the stuff a couple of years ago.  I now have a whole gob of Jamison brass and it is really good stuff and not that spendy.  Of course the 45-60 is probably more economical and easier to make out of 45-70 brass but that is the individuals choice.  Don't know if this helps or not.  The 45-75 uses, best, a 350 grain bullet whereas the 45-60 uses, best, a 300 grain bullet.
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 08:22:11 pm »

Well I can tell you that I have decided on the 45/75 for my 1876 model instead of the 50/95 caliber. I'll get the 1886 in the 50-110 instead, this way I will have two of the best lever guns in that time period and cover most of the calibers used on the bigger critters. Wink
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 08:06:35 pm »

    The 45-60 with smokeless can safely out perform anything the 45-75 ever did with BP. You can also find on this forum 45-60 data using 405 gr lead. Some of these loads even surpass 45-70-405 factory loads.

                                                           JL
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OKDEE
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 04:01:59 pm »

45-75 was the first caliber for the Winchester 1876 and a fine shooting round.  You cannot go wrong with it or the 45-60.
I always say, ....get one of each!. 

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 04:03:02 pm »

45-75 was the first caliber for the Winchester 1876 and a fine shooting round.  You cannot go wrong with it or the 45-60.
I always say, ....get one of each!. 

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

I agree - that's what I did  Wink
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 09:42:34 pm »

Guys, I fear that I am struggling at an attempt to get one and I want to do it right.  For several reasons I think I will go with the 45-75.  I think the case would offer some advantages for bp use and figure that it will give a slight power increase over the 45-60.  I am thinking that I will now need to start researching the needs that will go along with the rifle now.  I already know that black powder will be the only propellent so that and primers will be a no brainer but where do I go from there?

I have gotten the impression that brass has been the major downside to the 45-75 in modern guns and guess I need to address that first.  Who makes a good quality case and where can it be purchased, at what prices?  Next should be the dies to go with said brass, I'm guessing.  I am partial to Hornady but have not checked yet to see if they even offer these, so what brand are you guys using and which size case holder?

My first use will be for 200yd target shooting so any good recommendations on a bullet for this would be appreciated.  The match does not use speed as a tie breaker but goes strictly on paper scores so mid-range accuracy is the only criteria to consider.   I am always interested in a couple of good hunting bullets for later, deer and possibly a larger game trip might be possible.  Who has these bullets?

What am I forgetting that will slow me down after the gun arrives, if I do not get it before hand.  Which accessories will get me going and which will just drain my already strained bank account?  Keep in mind that this old guy IS on a fixed income!!   Cry       
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larryo_1
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 10:37:49 pm »

Well--as far as brass goes--Jamison makes about the best for the buck that you can get.  if you want to make your own then get a bunch of 348 brass and fire-form them. That is part of the fun of having this caliber.  The Jamison brass comes with the proper head stamp and it is good stuff.  That is what I am using now mostly.  As far as bullets are concerned--Buff Arms sells a very good 350 grain bullet at a reasonable price.  Myself-I went and had a Hoch mold made using a photo of an original bullet.  It works great and my rifle really likes it.  As far as lead alloy is concerned--I make my own patterned after what was printed on the original boxes stating that an alloy of 16:1 was recommended.  I have tried an alloy of 20:1 and have found--through trial and error--that MY rifle prefers the alloy of 16:1.  As far as BP is concerned--my rifle has the early larger chamber and I am able to use 76 grains of Swiss 1˝ BP very successfully.  If your rifle has the regular chamber you would most likely get the same performance with about 72 grains of the same powder.  As far as dies are concerned---I use Lee and RCBS both.  The RCBS dies are used for trimming and the Lee dies are used for the rest of the process along with a factory crimp die that they made for me.

That is about all I can tell you as the rest is up to you. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 02:47:43 pm »

The 45-75 is a great caliber.  Smiley  Here's a thread regarding making brass from 348 WCF and/or 50 Alaskan.  I have always had good luck with the shortened/reformed 348.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,22054.msg283723.html#msg283723

The search function will yield a bunch of useful info on loading for the 45-75.

Good luck! Smiley
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 08:53:21 pm »

If it's not too late to give my 2 cents worth.  My opinion is based on shooting buffalo with three of the four calibers chambered in the 1876 Winchester.  Without a doubt, the .45-75 WCF is my favorite.   Over the years, I've shot several thousand rounds of ammunition through many original 1876 Winchester rifles and carbines.  The .40-60 is a great flat shooting cartridge, but not designed for large game animals.  I sorta feel the same about the .45-60 although it is a great caliber to have fun with.  I used it on a buffalo (once) and that was enough.  It was not a one shot, one kill cartridge.   I've killed six buffalo with the .45-75 and with well placed shots, it performs flawlessly.  I shoot a 350 grain lead bullet with 70 grains of 2F black in a case reformed from .348WCF.  I've used .348 cases for over 40 years and never had any issue running then through original guns.  The .50 Express is also a good caliber, but I've only used an Express gun on one buffalo.  It worked well, but not like the .45-75.
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 11:06:57 pm »

Thanks guys, I have been looking back through some older posts as time allows.  A quick search for WWW.jamisonbrass.com does not return that outfit.  I will be looking through any sources I can find for such critters as shooting sticks, blow tubes and such but hope I can come up with some ideas to make my own?  Heard some good news on long range shooting at our local match this morning, seems one is in the works for possibly as early as April, 2012.  This one is going to be a timed match against a life size(?) buffalo and a ram.  Not sure on life size but ours runs slightly over five foot at the shoulders, if memory serves me right?  He was cut from an old rail road box car ramp from a loading dock and runs an estimated 850lbs.
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larryo_1
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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2011, 08:56:28 am »

Go to "custombrassandbullets.com".  Or you can google for "Jamison brass.  45-75 brass is going for $32.79/20.
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2011, 05:42:02 pm »

I read on another shooting board that Jamison was going out of business. (sorry ,,I didn't save the post/thread)

Have any of you heard this ?

Deadwood
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 12:59:56 pm »

Does anyone have a phone number for the Custom Brass and Bullet folks?  They still list the 45-75 Jamison brass so I would like to give them a call to find out what is going on there and place an order based on information received???
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larryo_1
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 01:44:40 pm »

Couldn't finda phone number but their e-mail address listed is sales@custombrassandbullets.com
Send them an e-mail and ask them if they would give you a call.  their stuff is still listed so give this a try.
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 09:03:59 pm »

Buffalo Arms has Jamison 45-75 brass in stock.
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2011, 10:16:25 am »

Below is a thought that crossed my mind after looking at the photo of all the '76 cartridge cases side by side.  The comparison of the 45-75 case to the 50-90 indicated that there would have been more chamber room to work with, even if the length were maxed out.  Any thoughts?


http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=180564
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2011, 11:03:22 am »

Below is a thought that crossed my mind after looking at the photo of all the '76 cartridge cases side by side.  The comparison of the 45-75 case to the 50-90 indicated that there would have been more chamber room to work with, even if the length were maxed out.  Any thoughts?


http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=180564

One of the criterion for a case firing non-jacketted lead bullets is that the base of the bullet should not sit below the neck of a loaded cartridge.  If it does, there might be gas cutting around the bullet affecting external ballistics. Looking at my ammo, the 350 gr Lyman and the Gould hollow-point both fit with the bullet base right at the base of the case neck. 

Even if you did create an "Ackley Improved " round, there would not be any significant increase in power.  At the time, and as M. Venturino finds, necked cases and blackpowder make a very finicky combination. It is much easier to make straight walled ammo that is accurate.
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2011, 11:49:23 am »

As I have stated earlier, the rifle that I have has the "Uberti" style chamber which, apparently, folks got upset enough over that  the chambering was changed to emulate the original specifications.  However, in my dabbelings with my rifle, I found that I did, in fact, gain about 5 grains of case capacity with no problems concerning bullet seating and so forth.  When I went to 76 grains of Swiss1˝, I did get an increase in velocity up to just under 1500 feet per second.  However there was a noticeable increase in recoil to go along with this load.  I have used and still do use 348 cases, 50-90 cases along with Jamison cases.  The Jamison cases come sized to original specs so I have to fire form them to my rifles chamber which is no big deal.  Since my rifle is of the earlier version with the larger chamber, alot of what I do may not pertain to you folks with the newer rifles with the original size chambers but thought that it would be worth passing along anyway.  And as I have also stated before the bullet that I use is a Hoch custom bullet cast to 350 grains with a 16:1 alloy.
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 08:36:14 pm »

OK guys, I ordered some of the Jamison 45-75 brass to play with and perhaps having the brass and some bullets in hand will let me better understand what is on my mind.  Its just that looking at thet loooong span of brass in front of the case neck makes it is hard for me to imagine that one couldn't balance it out to handle 70grs of powder and at least 400+grs of bullet without getting back into the neck??   But then, I admit to having a long road to travel on this venture.

Looks like we are talking $150 or higher for a custom set of Hornady dies, good price or too high?  I know I do not want the short dies produced by Lee but would like to hear some die recommendations.  The guy I talked with at Hornady didnt seem to know or understand the caliber or its needs any better than I do, BUT he did say that wasnt exactly what he done there.  He kept wanting to know if I would need a two or three die set???  DUH, I wanted him to tell me that, not the other way around!
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Slowhand Bob
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2011, 02:08:40 pm »

Not sure yet as to why BUT a piece of the 45-75 brass in hand does not seem to have near the neck ahead of the neck as is it appears in the photos.  I have not taken it out to the loading room to look at it against some 400gr bullts but I'm sure OAL requirements will eat up the space more quickly than I originally thought.  Buffalo also sent a copy of their last catalogue, so expect lots more questions to follow.
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 01:24:10 pm »

I have had my Cimarron 1876 for about 18 months now.  It is in .45-75 WCF.  I have a Buffalo Arms Co. 350 grain bullet mold and I use Jameson brass.  I have shot 5744 and some Pyrodex (black is hard to come by here, let alone Swiss which I would like to try).  I have gotten good results with the 5744.  It pushes 350 grain bullet at 1365 fps according to my Oehler 35P chrono..  Getting acceptable accuracy at 100 yards.  2-3 inch groups using a Marbles tang sight. 
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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2011, 10:14:18 am »

I have been using APP for all of my cartridge loading and Goex for all shotgun and non-cartridge guns.  It was always my intention to use Goex ff in 45-70 and the 45-75 rifles but now I am having second thoughts about the '76.  Though the price would go up with APP in those large cases, one would not have the problem of barrel fouling out with APP and wouldn't this be an important factor where time may become the decider?  Reading seems to indicate that bullet lube alone does not keep the rifle going?  Do the repeater guys normally get into the blow tubes and swabbing that goes along with single shot buffalo rifles?
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2011, 11:22:50 am »

Slowhand Bob;  I havn;t found GOEX causing serious fouling in my Chappie NWMP carbine.  I'm not even using Bigloob bullets, merely bog-standard Lyman 457193 and Gould HP moulds. There is no reason not to try it out and see how it works for you.

I have never tried APP but do use pyrodex in antiques with frosty barrels that foul-out really quickly.
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 09:05:18 pm »


Looks like we are talking $150 or higher for a custom set of Hornady dies, good price or too high?  I know I do not want the short dies produced by Lee but would like to hear some die recommendations.  The guy I talked with at Hornady didnt seem to know or understand the caliber or its needs any better than I do, BUT he did say that wasnt exactly what he done there.  He kept wanting to know if I would need a two or three die set???  DUH, I wanted him to tell me that, not the other way around!

The Hornady dies are over priced and not needed.  Lee makes a good die for the 45-75 at an attractive price. http://leeprecision.com/xcart/V-LTD-3-DIE-45-75.html

I like the CH4D Tool and Die reloading dies.  http://www.ch4d.com/

They offer the 45-75 dies for both the Winchester and  the Uberti chamber.  Their prices have gone up, and are now at $113.

Good luck. Smiley  Merry Christmas! Grin
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: The 45-75, any thoughts? « previous next »
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