Why so many guns?

[joec]

Two Step  a question for you 

You state " NCOWS is a relatively easy to get in to, weapon wise, but they are far more restrictive on fashion"

I ask because, I don't know if you are a NCOWS Member or perhaps you are repeating a Misconception.

The truth is a very good percentage of SASS shooters are already at NCOWS Level 1 or better (2 even 3)
The exceptions would be Buscadro rigs and/or fast draw rigs , and Silver Screen Hero costuming.

In addition, a member has up to 1 year to get thier kit to level one, and if they chose may stay at level one for their entire experience with NCOWS.
Equally, they may chose to enhance their persona and move to level 2 or 3 or even Originals.

I just wanted to set the rumors straight 

 

If I can add to that as a relatively new member of NCOWS. The costuming is the price of a pair of pants, shirt, suspenders and boots/shoes as well as a hat. Now you can get carried away with anything as I did getting way more than I needed but then I have two complete outfits that can be mixed and matched to make others. I got mine up front as it was on a good sale at the time.

As for the guns I bought a Uberti Cattleman and a Rossi Rifle to start. I've since bought 2 more 1873 Colt clones (ASM and Cimarron) as well as a 12 ga SxS shotgun. My most expensive gun was the Cimarron at $449 + 6% sales tax with the cheapest at $250 including a holster. I bought an inexpensive holster and belt to start and later having ClifFendleyly build me one to my likes.

At any rate it by far was cheaper than golf, car racing or a few other hobbies I've had, and just as much fun.

[Cliff Fendley]

Good grief, it's amazing how people are mislead about the outfit for NCOWS. Yes there are those that strive to make their outfit perfect and by hearing them talk that misleads people.

Here's all it takes to get a complete NCOWS outfit.

Hamilton dry goods has plain period outfits, pants, suspenders, shirt, and socks for 69 dollars.

Find any old hat and twist it around in a shape that would have looked correct for the period. I can pretty much take any felt cowboy hat and make it pass, basically if it has no real style it would be correct.

A pair of Wellington style work boots and your good done with a level one outfit.

Even if you bought it all new your probably a little over 200 dollars for the entire outfit.

 

[Bow View Haymaker]

The Grand Army of the Frontier is a CAS organization that use 2 or 1 gun in it's shooti8ng catagories.  Check out the Barraks hear on CASCITY.  The Scout class is 1 pistol and SASS  rifle.  Staff officer or Infantryman are both 1 gun classes.  the milspecrifle catagories are the real heart of the group  Unfortunatly there are not many musters held around the country.  We are trying to change that.  You DO NOT have to wear a uniform to participate but the museum quality uniforms that some members have are recognizes and their efforts rewarded. 
Look into it.  Maybe get something started localy.  try to attend a state, regional or national muster.  great fun.

[Two-Step]

Good grief, it's amazing how people are mislead about the outfit for NCOWS. Yes there are those that strive to make their outfit perfect and by hearing them talk that misleads people.

Here's all it takes to get a complete NCOWS outfit.

Hamilton dry goods has plain period outfits, pants, suspenders, shirt, and socks for 69 dollars.

Find any old hat and twist it around in a shape that would have looked correct for the period. I can pretty much take any felt cowboy hat and make it pass, basically if it has no real style it would be correct.

A pair of Wellington style work boots and your good done with a level one outfit.

Even if you bought it all new your probably a little over 200 dollars for the entire outfit.

I have actually mentioned wellingtons with NCOWS members and gotten less than positive (to put it nicely) replies from some NCOWS members. Forget the fact that I did an in depth report on Vulcanization and the use of Rubber during the 19th Century and could show evidence of it's use in America, during the "golden age of the old west".
Part of the reason that so many people are mislead by NCOWS fashion rules may be a matter of how it is written... that and some of the NCOWS folks are very vocal about "if it ain't documented, you can't use it". Really, it is just off putting.
Also, since I am more of the "fun loving, silver screen, wild west show, Saturday morning, "B" western, just having fun with a gun type" NCOWS fashion is restrictive in that regard which is exactly what I mean by "more restrictive" than the SASS and other CAS organizations.

[Cliff Fendley]

I have actually mentioned wellingtons with NCOWS members and gotten less than positive (to put it nicely) replies from some NCOWS members. Forget the fact that I did an in depth report on Vulcanization and the use of Rubber during the 19th Century and could show evidence of it's use in America, during the "golden age of the old west".
Part of the reason that so many people are mislead by NCOWS fashion rules may be a matter of how it is written... that and some of the NCOWS folks are very vocal about "if it ain't documented, you can't use it". Really, it is just off putting.
Also, since I am more of the "fun loving, silver screen, wild west show, Saturday morning, "B" western, just having fun with a gun type" NCOWS fashion is restrictive in that regard which is exactly what I mean by "more restrictive" than the SASS and other CAS organizations.

I completely understand what your saying but go to the shoots and look how people are dressed and then judge. Most look correct but many of the clothes are of more modern materials and construction. There are about three types of "period" boots that I see many of the members wearing and they have rubber soles. I normally wear my Wellington style work boots, they look just as correct as what many others are wearing. My Tony Lamas are much more correct in construction but don't have the right look because of stitching and too pointed of toe.

[Two-Step]

I completely understand what your saying but go to the shoots and look how people are dressed and then judge. Most look correct but many of the clothes are of more modern materials and construction. There are about three types of "period" boots that I see many of the members wearing and they have rubber soles. I normally wear my Wellington style work boots, they look just as correct as what many others are wearing. My Tony Lamas are much more correct in construction but don't have the right look because of stitching and too pointed of toe.

All I am trying to say is that NCOWS is more restrictive on clothing, than some other CAS organizations.... nothing more that that.


ONCE AGAIN...
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = permitted by SASS and some other CAS groups
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = not permitted by NCOWS
NCOWS = more restrictive than SASS in regards to clothing.

MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Cowboy Fast Draw legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = CMS Legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Not NCOWS legal
NCOWS = More restrictive than CFD and CMS, in regards to clothing

It is not a complaint about NCOWS, it is merely a statement of clothing restrictions as it relates to NCOWS as it compares to other CAS organizations... as they are stated by the NCOWS rule book.

My observation of NCOWS vs other CAS groups is not about the specific materials used for clothing, but rather the specified style mentioned by NCOWS, to include the cut and style of the clothing. It isn't about the cost of one style over another, but rather about the dictated fashion accepted by NCOWS as opposed to other CAS organizations.

I, like a lot of people, have plenty of "special use" clothing that I (we) wish was as inexpensive as NCOWS "legal" clothing. It isn't a matter of cost, but rather about the style of clothing that makes NCOWS more restrictive than other CAS organizations. It isn't a bad thing, just more restrictive than SASS, Cowboy Mounted, and Cowboy Fast Draw.

A VERY GOOD SOURCE OF NCOWS GARB AND GEAR EXPECTATIONS: http://www.ncows.org/outfit1.html

Think of it this way...
The wife tells you to paint the bathroom blue. There are many shades of blue to choose from, but red is not one of them. That is the difference between NCOWS and other CAS organizations, in regards to clothing.
SILVER SCREEN CLOTHING in the NCOWS = The kitchen getting painted red.

[Bugscuffle]

Because the fun of CAS shooting is not a linear progression. It is expotential. You double the guns and you get four times the fun. You tripple the guns you get nine times the fun. With four guns you get sixteen times the fun. O.K.?

[Cliff Fendley]

All I am trying to say is that NCOWS is more restrictive on clothing, than some other CAS organizations.... nothing more that that.


ONCE AGAIN...
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = permitted by SASS and some other CAS groups
SILVER SCREEN DUDS = not permitted by NCOWS
NCOWS = more restrictive than SASS in regards to clothing.

MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Cowboy Fast Draw legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = CMS Legal
MODERN JEANS, SHIRT, BOOTS = Not NCOWS legal
NCOWS = More restrictive than CFD and CMS, in regards to clothing

It is not a complaint about NCOWS, it is merely a statement of clothing restrictions as it relates to NCOWS as it compares to other CAS organizations... as they are stated by the NCOWS rule book.

My observation of NCOWS vs other CAS groups is not about the specific materials used for clothing, but rather the specified style mentioned by NCOWS, to include the cut and style of the clothing. It isn't about the cost of one style over another, but rather about the dictated fashion accepted by NCOWS as opposed to other CAS organizations.

I, like a lot of people, have plenty of "special use" clothing that I (we) wish was as inexpensive as NCOWS "legal" clothing. It isn't a matter of cost, but rather about the style of clothing that makes NCOWS more restrictive than other CAS organizations. It isn't a bad thing, just more restrictive than SASS, Cowboy Mounted, and Cowboy Fast Draw.

A VERY GOOD SOURCE OF NCOWS GARB AND GEAR EXPECTATIONS: http://www.ncows.org/outfit1.html

Think of it this way...
The wife tells you to paint the bathroom blue. There are many shades of blue to choose from, but red is not one of them. That is the difference between NCOWS and other CAS organizations, in regards to clothing.
SILVER SCREEN CLOTHING in the NCOWS = The kitchen getting painted red.

I must have misunderstood what your saying but it does not cost any more and I thought that is what you were implying since this thread was started in regards to needing so many guns.

I guess I have a hard time understanding what the big deal is since NCOWS legal clothing is not that expensive and if a person winds up buying a more formal NCOWS type outfit it can be worn to other formal wear events.

The link doesn't work and I didn't understand why the kitchen has too be painted red if your wife want's a blue bathroom. 

Of course I'm kind of dumb so maybe it's just me, maybe my wife can explain that one.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Try this experiment.
Start a CAS Club.
Charge yearly dues of about $25.
Find a range and set up Sages including targets.
Charge about $10 to $15 per match.
At each stage have a 'Cowboy' with one revolver shoot 5 targets.
Now have about 5 stages, maybe 6.
Having fired the 25 to 30 rounds, pick a winner.
Go home and do the match again next month.
Likely by the second, or at most the third, month you'll figure out why SASS has multiple guns.

[Camille Eonich]

The topic of this thread is "Why so Many Guns?".  Let's move back to that please.

IMO one gun just would not make a fun match.  IPSC is different in that you can rapidly reload while changing magazines and it can be done safely on the run.  I would not want to try to reload a single action on the move, standing still at a table is tedious enough when on the clock.  I go to a match to shoot...

[Marshal Deadwood]

2006 NC State Ladies Traditional Champion
2007 NC State Ladies Traditional Champion
2007 EOT Ladies Traditional 4th place (17th lady overall)
2009 NC State BP State Champion

Impressive credentials, Camille.

I also go to match's to shoot,,,and shoot,,,,,,,,,,,,,and shoot. One can not shoot TOO MANY guns !

Waiting in rotation to shoot one gun,,or even two, would ,,,in my opinion,,, stifle the game a good bit. I know guns are expensive, and I also know times are tight on all of us, but I have to come down on the side of present SASS requirements  on this subject.

Deadwood

[Camille Eonich]

Thank you. 


I put a fairly long post in another thread about what would have to take place in order to incorporate a 1 or two gun category into SASS but most just ignored it.  Most people that are talking about it don't know that not only are our matches a competition within categories but also overall.  There would really be a lot more to it than just showing up and shooting with one or two guns especially since most of the people inquiring about doing so aren't also willing to take misses for targets not engaged.

I wrote and directed matches for Iredell Regulators and other clubs for 2+ years.  I was the president of the NC State Match Committee for three years all three of which were sell outs with people on the waiting list.  The only reason that I mention this is because I do know a little bit about putting on matches and the inner workings of doing so.  I am also a software developer and heavily modified one of the available SASS scoring programs to suit the needs of both clubs that I regularly did scoring for.  Custom reports, a few modifications to make things a little easier on us for entering data and things of that nature.

[Pony Racer]

CE - you are one of my personal favs!

Hope to shoot with you SW again one of these days down the line...

PR

[Camille Eonich]

WOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO Pony racer! TY 


 You will.  I really need to get back to Lost River my all time mostest favorite place to shoot.

[Tall Dark Slim]

Camille makes two good points:
The capacity of the weapons is too little to have a few gun match and the time it takes to reload the weapons is horrendous. For the people that are fast at this and proposing it: take your time and multiply it by four and take the number of people at the match and figure 80% or better are going to do it at that speed worst case scenario. All day...all night...Maryann!!!

Trying to arrange all the current categories and the "oddballs" shooting one or two or three guns instead of the full arsenal SEPARATELY is just too much for the poor stats person. Talk about a truly thankless job....doing the stats after having been at the match all day and possibly setting up and tearing down. Too fast and nobody really notices the effort....too slow and the whole world complains.

[Two-Step]

Actually, let the "big boys" keep going the way they are. There is little that can be done to change their minds. Eventually, someone is going to form a CAS organization that does not require "so many guns". When it comes down to it, it is their club and their way... so it seems that a new club might be just the thing.

In fact, feel free to contact me, I have some experience and ideas about this very subject.

[Bow View Haymaker]

Actually, let the "big boys" keep going the way they are. There is little that can be done to change their minds. Eventually, someone is going to form a CAS organization that does not require "so many guns". When it comes down to it, it is their club and their way... so it seems that a new club might be just the thing.

In fact, feel free to contact me, I have some experience and ideas about this very subject.

someone already has.  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,20.0.html

It's called the Grand Army of the Frontier. and it started right here on CASCITY.  we have matches and everything. 
you DO NOT have to where a uniform or shoot a military rifle to compete.  read through the Barracks and see.
 (2nd time its mentioned it in this thread )

[Cliff Fendley]

Isn't it funny how you've got GAF and NCOWS, both have been mentioned on this thread and people still refuse to believe there are options with less guns involved.

In fact one of NCOWS biggest issues right now is discussions on forming more classes with less guns and revolver only classes for people with physical limitations.

If your wanting to start your own shooting organization the ground work is laid out for you, just start a posse with one of the organizations that already exist.

[Two-Step]

someone already has.  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,20.0.html

It's called the Grand Army of the Frontier. and it started right here on CASCITY.  we have matches and everything. 
you DO NOT have to where a uniform or shoot a military rifle to compete.  read through the Barracks and see.
 (2nd time its mentioned it in this thread )

I took a brief gander at the GAF rules and regs and I am now slightly confused. They say era MILSPEC weapons and clothing, while you state the contrary. I have contacted GAF for rules clarification, pertaining specifically to required guns and clothing.

In fact, that could be part of the problem with many of the CAS groups... it seems that there are "THE ORGANIZATION RULES" and then there are "WHAT WE REALLY DO RULES". I know that when I used to do MILSIM events, THE RULES where THE RULES... period

I will comment further on this once I have received clarification for GAF.

BACK TO TOPIC
In defence of "multi-gun" CAS organizations... sort of.
Plainly and simply, CAS organizations such as SASS, are typically a business enterprise. Mainly, they exist on membership fees and advertisers... not to mention a reliance on sponsors and event vendors.  Advertisers, vendors and sponsors want to sell stuff... so the more that is required, the more they will sale. I had to deal with this very thing, back in my MILSIM days.
When you break it down, it is simple economics. For example; Founder's Ranch did not come to exist with out a lot of CAS dollars being spent. Which, BTW, looks like an awesome place and is advertised as being available to rent. 

It cost money to operate any organization. The bigger the organization, the more money required to maintain it's operation. Insurance, staff, advertisement, construction,... it all cost money. With out that money, SASS and other CAS groups could not successfully operate. So, buy more guns, shoot hundreds of rounds of ammo, buy the fancy trappings and be happy that you are contributing to America's economy. 

From this view point, it is easy to explain "why so many guns"... with out the "sugar coating" and "propaganda" used to recruit and keep members.
Oh, and WE LIKE GUNS, LOTS AND LOTS OF GUNS !!!!  So, any reason to justify having bunches of them works for us.

[Bow View Haymaker]

While GAF honors the military history of the later 1800's there  is a place for "civilians within the ranks.  Look at the "Scout" and "militia" categories.  look under the "battle rifle guidelines"  you will see mil-spec categories and non-mil-spec categories.  they recognize and honor the authenticity of the museum quality uniforms and the expert marksmanship with mil-spec weapons but do not require it.  I have attended 5 regional and national musters and shot Scout class in all of them,  I usually were the same clothes as I so to SASS matches but am slowly working to something that at least has a solder "look" to it.  Great fun is always had by all.  there are some local clubs that are including the GAF categories in their offerings and the beginnings of a couple of GAF based clubs.  The muster guide gives even more info. 

[Camille Eonich]

Plainly and simply, CAS organizations such as SASS, are typically a business enterprise. Mainly, they exist on membership fees and advertisers... not to mention a reliance on sponsors and event vendors.  Advertisers, vendors and sponsors want to sell stuff... so the more that is required, the more they will sale. I had to deal with this very thing, back in my MILSIM days.
When you break it down, it is simple economics. For example; Founder's Ranch did not come to exist with out a lot of CAS dollars being spent. Which, BTW, looks like an awesome place and is advertised as being available to rent. 

It cost money to operate any organization. The bigger the organization, the more money required to maintain it's operation. Insurance, staff, advertisement, construction,... it all cost money. With out that money, SASS and other CAS groups could not successfully operate. So, buy more guns, shoot hundreds of rounds of ammo, buy the fancy trappings and be happy that you are contributing to America's economy. 

From this view point, it is easy to explain "why so many guns"... with out the "sugar coating" and "propaganda" used to recruit and keep members.
Oh, and WE LIKE GUNS, LOTS AND LOTS OF GUNS !!!!  So, any reason to justify having bunches of them works for us.

They were using three guns before they ever started worrying about sponsorships, vendors and such.  Generally they used only one pistol which at some time evolved to two simply because they wanted to shoot more and reloads took a lot of time.


You seem to pretty much grasp onto what you want and ignore everything else.  If arguing for the sake of arguing is your forte you may want to look into a debate competition.  I understand they require no guns at all. 

[Two-Step]

They were using three guns before they ever started worrying about sponsorships, vendors and such.  Generally they used only one pistol which at some time evolved to two simply because they wanted to shoot more and reloads took a lot of time.


You seem to pretty much grasp onto what you want and ignore everything else.  If arguing for the sake of arguing is your forte you may want to look into a debate competition.  I understand they require no guns at all. 

Maybe you would like to join me, you make some pretty fair arguments yourself. In fact, you have argued in at least as many threads as I have... probably more since you have been here longer 
As far as arguing, that was not my intent. I simply attempted to post a rational viewpoint that might help explain "why so many guns".

There are a few people here that know that I am of the "fewer-gun" philosophy. I don't see the need to have 4 guns in order to play gunslinger. But, that does not mean that I don't appreciate and respect that CAS has been made successful because of business practices which are conducive to the sales of CAS equipment.

Anyone who thinks that CAS is not a business, please point me to the successful CAS group that has no membership fees, no event fees, has lots of prizes and food, does not charge vendors and advertisers, and provides all the necessary equipment to the members so they can take part in matches and competitions.
Plain and simple, CAS is a business... for clubs, organizations, manufacturers, and retailers. And, there is not a thing in the world wrong with that. SASS is not bad because they are trying to make a buck or two... It is what makes them successful and allows so many people to enjoy CAS. In fact, it is the success of the SASS that has opened up the door to other CAS organizations.

While GAF honors the military history of the later 1800's there  is a place for "civilians within the ranks.  Look at the "Scout" and "militia" categories.  look under the "battle rifle guidelines"  you will see mil-spec categories and non-mil-spec categories.  they recognize and honor the authenticity of the museum quality uniforms and the expert marksmanship with mil-spec weapons but do not require it.  I have attended 5 regional and national musters and shot Scout class in all of them,  I usually were the same clothes as I so to SASS matches but am slowly working to something that at least has a solder "look" to it.  Great fun is always had by all.  there are some local clubs that are including the GAF categories in their offerings and the beginnings of a couple of GAF based clubs.  The muster guide gives even more info. 

1st, thank you for mentioning GAF. I was not familiar with them and I did not see your previous mention of them.
You are right, GAF is "fewer guns required" organization. Also, it is not entirely a MILSPEC group... though historical accuracy as seen with NCOWS does seem to be important.
I think that GAF and the CAS community could benifit from more exposure of GAF.

For the person not wanting to play 4-gun SASS, you might want to look into the GAF. Also, NCOWS does not require the use of "so many guns".
For the poor "B- western" fanatic, we are screwed.  For Now 

From Drydock via PM
"Milspec" classes, where you are required to shoot Milspec approved weapons and wear the uniforms that match them, and we have "Scout" classes, which can be shot with CAS style weapons and accoutrements.  This allows a potentially interested shooter to try our course of fire without the additional expense.
... these classes do not compete against each other, but only against themselves, and non milspec classes are not eligible for the championships at the three levels we designate.
IE, you shoot with GAF, find out you like GAF, then you can get involved with the needed weapons, uniforms, reloading and research needed to compete in the championship eligible MILSPEC classes.

[Camille Eonich]

I haven't argued the issue with you at all.  You keep asking why and complaining about the game requiring 4 guns and many people have given you many reasons why and have explained to you why it's not as easy as just adding another category.  People have offered you alternatives and you always snub your nose at them and explain why they aren't perfectly suited to you either.  People have explained to you that many clubs make amends and yet instead of getting out and going to a match and finding out anything about any of them you just keep returning to complain and point out why they aren't suited to you.

We get it already.  If it doesn't exactly match your desires then you don't want to be a part of even so far as to go and find what is really going on before you come online and try to tell other people about what's happening and make completely false statements.  Ignorance can be cured but it takes active participation and at least some level of comprehension not to mention at least the desire to learn about the subject that you are trying to communicate about.

[Jefro]

Actually, let the "big boys" keep going the way they are. There is little that can be done to change their minds. 

Howdy Two Steps, it really ain't that way at all. As I've posted on the first page and on other simular threads, if you only want to shoot one gun bring it to a match and shoot it. But the way a cowboy action match is set up your just not gonna get the full effect, and for me it would be down right boring. Here's a typical stage;10 Pistol - 10 Rifle - 4 Shotgun.....Start at goat wagon with bag of money in both hands, rifle staged on goat wagon, pistols holstered, shotgun staged on table 3.
When ready say the line "Fill the bag full of money" at the beep set money bag on wagon and retrive rifle. Shoot the three rifle targets with two Nevada sweeps starting from either end, make rifle safe and take money bag to table 2. With pistols shoot two Nevada sweeps on three targets from either end, holster, grab money bag and take it to table 3. With shotgun knockdown the four targets. Move to unloading table

If all you had was one pistol you could shoot the pistol targets five times, ten if you want to do a reload, then go to the unloading table.  The point is yer gonna miss out on the ACTION part of cowboy action, and not alota rounds down range. Sorta like going to play baseball but all you want to do is swing the bat, no fielding, no running the bases, just try to hit the ball when it's your turn. But as has been pointed out many times if that's all you want to do by all means show up and shoot. You will be offered a bunch of guns to shoot the entire match, that's just the way we are. But you'll never find out untill you actually go to a match.
  There is another game more suited to one pistol, or one pistol and a rifle. It's the Steel Challenge, and they have a cowboy SA category, alot more rounds down range for the time and effort. I've been planning to set up a local match with our cowboy targets, pistol targets are one distance, then rifle is shot further back. You shoot each stage five times with the worst score thrown out, best average of the four rounds. Good Luck
Steel Challenge

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Marshal Deadwood]

Two Step..........maybe SASS really isn't the game for everyone. But, the ones that do it,,enjoy it, have no complaints with it,,,and see no reason to change it. Most clubs will bend over backwards to help accommodate,,and what MORE can one ask ?

After a certain point, it does seem the argument is merely for the sake of the argument. I'm about as far from one of the 'big boys' as you can get,,,,just an average ol' guy with the cowboy spirit trying to  have a little fun.......but I like SASS as is. And, no, I don't have enough guns cause I'm wealthy , I just have different priorities than some.  And, my firearms are a priority to me,,, I've never regretted one penny spent on the shooting sports.

The logic you present is akin to asking the Golf sports to have a 20 yards range so more folks could buy  just one club and be able to afford to play.  Were I to become enamored with the idea of 'golfing', I'd just cowboy up and try to afford the tools of the trade. I might even come to the conclusion before I spent penny one,,that 'golf' would just not be my game,,not be feasible to do, and pass on it.

In any event, I'd hope the last thing I would do it attack the sport that others enjoy in an effort for it to accommodate my personal desires.

Just sayin'............no disrespect intended.

Deadwood