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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1873 (Moderator: Major 2)  |  Topic: 44 WCF Smokeless Loads 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: 44 WCF Smokeless Loads  (Read 9858 times)
PJ Hardtack
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« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2011, 10:37:19 am »

w444wcf

If psb works in the app you mentioned, so be it. Like I said - I don't knock success.

As for SD, some of the most accurate loads have been those with the greatest SD shot for shot. I've read more than one article that discusses this as one of the great 'everyone knows' gun myths. One was regarding SD in .22 LR ammo using a Win M52 target rifle as the the test bed. Some of the best groups came from ammo with the widest variation shot for shot, brands you wouldn't think of buying.

A more recent one was using an accurate 1911 in a Ransom machine rest. The author fired hundreds of rds to get his findings. He used a 'control' batch of uniform brass of one make vs a mixed bag of several makes and OAL. The most accurate load was comprised of that batch and had the widest SD.
I feel there is as much if not more variation in how I am feeling that day, the atmospherics, light conditions, correolis effect, etc., than there is in precision reloading concerns like concentricity, case uniformity, etc. I'm simply not interested or that good of a shot for it to matter.

I once went to the nth degree with a tacticool .308 trying to beat the accuracy I got with 150 gr PSP hunting ammo I bought on sale at Wal*Mart. I did it, but it wasn't worth the effort.
Several years ago, I was gifted with a chronograph. It's been out of the box twice - once to prove it worked and the 2nd to learn that the factories and reloading manuals lied about their velocities.

Like I said - I'm just lazy and have to apply the KISS principle to my handloading.
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Rowdy Fulcher
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« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2011, 11:14:41 pm »

Howdy
I like the Unique it performs on paper for me . Dropped  a coyote with it today . the 8.6 load works GREAT .
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Jubal Wilson
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2011, 12:49:44 am »

The only ringed chambers that I have seen in my 56 years of shooting sports occurred when a very fast powder like Bullseye was held to the base of the case by a card wad or compressed paper or similar. This configuration has a large air space that allows the wad or similar to get a running start at base of the bullet. With the Puff-Lon or PSB there is no air space, the case is filled to the mouth then the bullet compresses the filler by the depth of bullet seating. I find the Puff-Lon increases the velocity by about 10% so there is some increase in pressure. An article I read in Handloader magazine stated that the author of the article used 9.5 grains of Unique in the 44WCF to get a velocity in the 1300s so I think by using 8.5 grains of Unique and Puff-Lon to get 1260 fps should be safe for me and my rifle. It has been working for almost 30 years.
Jubal
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Jubal Wilson

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Joe Lansing
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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2011, 03:04:06 pm »

    The use of fillers can be traced back to reloading at the time when smokeless was becoming available. When loading with BP, there was NO neck sizing. A case full of BP kept the bullet from falling in, and a crimp kept the bullet from falling out. With a lesser volume of smokeless powder, fillers were needed to keep the bullet from falling into the case (usually corn meal or a similar cereal) and were found to work. Of course, it was often discovered that using fillers required a reduced smokeless charge to keep the pressures at a safe level. There must have been some tough lessons learned.

    I did some 44-40 test fireing with Bullseye (no filler), and here are the results: all loads using 200gr hard cast .427 bullet.3 shots each. 24" barrel Uberti '73.

    6.0gr Bullseye, aver. vel.1135fps., 37fps dev.

    6.6gr Bullseye, aver. vel.1185fps., 22fps dev.


    Also tried was 18gr 4759 (no filler),3 shots. same bullet, aver. vel. 1350fps., 48fps dev.   


                                                              JL

   
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w44wcf
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« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2011, 11:01:14 pm »

PJ Hardtack,
Yes, I have seen examples where the some loadings with a larger SD sometimes produce the smallest groups. 

Joe,
Thank you for your data on Bullseye. I may give that a try sometime.
I found that my friend uses the 6.6  grs. which was the load shown in an earlier Hercules powder pamphlet.

w44wcf  
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aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
aka w30wcf (smokeless)
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Coal Creek Griff
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« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2011, 02:21:04 pm »

Just as a bit of an update, I finally settled on a Unique load that gives me just under 1200 fps.  As long as I hold the rifle level, it is consistent and accurate.

I also purchased an Accurate Molds 43-215C mold that casts great bullets.  It is designed for BP, but works great with smokeless too.  I chose it for that flexibility.  The crimp grove is perfect: a slight roll crimp into the groove holds the bullet in place and doesn't crumple the cases.  I am able to seat and crimp at the same time (I had had trouble with this with othe molds--if I roll-crimped hard enought to hold the bullet, it tended to crumple the cases.  I had to use a factory crimp die in a separate process).  The loaded rounds look virtually identical to those loaded with my antique Winchester mold.  I exchanged a couple of emails with Tom at Accurate Molds regarding my alloy and the bullets cast at exactly the size I wanted and fit my barrel and chamber well enough that I can shoot without sizing if I choose.

Anyway, thanks for all of the comments and advice, gents.    I really appreciate it!

CC Griff
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w44wcf
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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2011, 09:30:54 am »

CC Griff,
Thank you for the update. I'm happy to hear that the 43-215C is working very well for you. Grin

w44wcf
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aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
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Rowdy Fulcher
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2013, 11:37:50 am »

W44wcf
Have you ever used any H4227 in a 44wcf ?
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Rowdy Fulcher
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2013, 11:58:24 am »

Howdy
I guess I've got Olde Timers syndrome . I used this powder some time ago and forgot . I found my own reply about it on the NCOWS site . Oh and I didn't care for it back then .
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Mike
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2013, 10:14:59 pm »

 "Also tried was 18gr 4759 (no filler),3 shots. same bullet, aver. vel. 1350fps., 48fps dev."

I tried 17.5 grn of 4759 in my 73 20 inch today and was pleased with the results not sure I would want to use 18grn and the 17.5 was a full case (to the base of my lead bullet). I did get some un burnt powder. I plan to try 15-16.5 and see what happens.

   


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Buffalochip
w44wcf
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« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2013, 06:42:41 pm »

W44wcf
Have you ever used any H4227 in a 44wcf ?

Rowdy,
Yes I have. Probably burned up 5-6 lbs in my original '73. It gave excellent accuracy if I positioned the powder to the back of the case (raising the muzzle momentarily before closing the lever all the way).  I also used a small square of toilet paper to hold the powder in place with good results.

4227 has an equivalent burning rate to the early DuPont No. 2 in that 17 grs of either = 1,300 f.p.s. (if the 4227 is positioned to the back of the case)  DuPont No. 2 was used in the first 44-40 smokeless cartridges. Being a bulk smokeless powder it filled the case capacity under the bullet completely as this pic shows.



 

w44wcf
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aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka John Kort
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KirkD
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« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2013, 09:52:10 pm »

The following quotes are from the Spring 2005 issue of Black Powder Cartridge News, an article on chamber ringing by Steve Garbe. His reference was "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" by Wayne Schwartz.
The use of Bullseye for the above test is truly bizarre. Bullseye is a very fast powder with a very sharp pressure spike. I would never use filler with a powder that fast. I usually draw the line somewhere around 2400 or IMR 4227 or 5744. That test is useless for telling us anything about the proper use of fillers, which should NOT be with fast powders and should not be with corn meal or cream of wheat, which harden. I have used filler for years in many different calibers and all in old Winchesters at least 100 years old and never had the remotest sign of ringing, but then again, I didn't do something crazy like use Bullseye with filler. Currently, I use a tuft of cotton in my 44-40 loads using 5744 as my powder.
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w44wcf
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 07:08:17 am »

The use of Bullseye for the above test is truly bizarre. Bullseye is a very fast powder with a very sharp pressure spike. I would never use filler with a powder that fast. I usually draw the line somewhere around 2400 or IMR 4227 or 5744. That test is useless for telling us anything about the proper use of fillers, which should NOT be with fast powders and should not be with corn meal or cream of wheat, which harden. I have used filler for years in many different calibers and all in old Winchesters at least 100 years old and never had the remotest sign of ringing, but then again, I didn't do something crazy like use Bullseye with filler. Currently, I use a tuft of cotton in my 44-40 loads using 5744 as my powder.

Kirk,
I totally agree that the use of Bullseye in that test is not "real world". Bullseye was never used in any factory .45-70 cartridges including the reduced "Short Range" and "Armory" Loadings.  Sharpshooter was the fastest powder that was factory loaded in the .45-70 and its burning rate is close to 2400.

Your load of 5744 with a tuft of cotton is a very good one producing very good results and, in away, is similar to the early capacity loading of DuPont No 2 bulk smokeless. Grin

w44wcf
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aka John Kort
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w44wcf
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 07:37:38 am »

Speaking of DuPont No. 2 bulk smokeless (see pic in a recent post), I found some cartridges loaded with that powder in a recent purchase of a number of vintage 44 WCF and 44-40 ammunition headstamped W.R.A. CO., U.M.C., U.S.C. Co., PETERS & REM-UMC.

I  Also found some that were factory loaded with Semi-Smokeless, Sharpshooter, and Hazard No. 2, another bulk smokeless similar in density and burning rate to DuPont No. 2. I was like a kid in a candy store. Grin Grin
 
After dissecting some of the cartridges, I removed and discarded the old mercuric primers, cleaned, annealed and resized the brass. I then reprimed, placed the powder back into the cases and seated the bullets.  

In testing, I found that these vintage cartridges that "those who have gone before us" would have used back in their day to be very accurate and consistant, better than what is available today
.

w44wcf
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aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
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KirkD
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2013, 01:17:04 pm »

My pet load for my original Winchester Model 1873 (made in 1889) is, as mentioned above, 17.7 grains of 5744 under a tuft of cotton filler and a 205 grain gas checked bullet from the Accurate Mould company. Twelve shots over the chronograph gave an average velocity of 1,301 fps, an extreme spread in velocity of 28 fps, and a standard deviation of 8 fps. At 100 yards, that load gives me five shot groups of anywhere from 1 & 3/4" to 2 & 3/4. At 200 yards, I can get 5" groups on a calm day.
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Trailrider
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« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2013, 11:01:52 pm »

[Warning: I bear NO responsibility for the use of the following information in guns other than my own, and maybe not then! Usual disclaimer.]

For the past 25 years or so, my standard load in .44-40 has been 8.0 grains of Hodgdon's UNIVERSAL behind a commercially cast 213 gr RNFP bullet, sized .430". I shot over 3,000 in a Navy Arms M1860 Henry repeating rifle, checking the headspace periodically. MV = 1280 ft/sec from the 24" barrel. I use nothing but Winchester brass and LP primers. I noted NO stretching of the action nor setbacik to that point. My pistols have been Ruger OM Vaqueros, so I can't say I would recommend this hot of a load in Colt-style guns. MV from the tight-throated (.425" throats, .430" bullet  Shocked ) Rugers runs around 950 ft/sec from a 7-1/2" barrel. Load is DEFINITELY NOT for BP Colt's!  Just sayin... 
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