To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question

[Tjackstephens]

If the shotgun/handgun would get new members, then I would be for it. Like I have said we have offered it for two years at Col. Bishop's Renegades and had one person shoot it once. Offered it at the Green River Rangers Company B at our last shoot, no one shot it. However we had a side match with working cowboy and town tamer (shotgun/handgun), about every one shot it. Does make a great side match when shot that way. Sounds like a lot to talk about at the convention. Tj

[1961MJS]

If the shotgun/handgun would get new members, then I would be for it. Like I have said we have offered it for two years at Col. Bishop's Renegades and had one person shoot it once. Offered it at the Green River Rangers Company B at our last shoot, no one shot it. However we had a side match with working cowboy and town tamer (shotgun/handgun), about every one shot it. Does make a great side match when shot that way. Sounds like a lot to talk about at the convention. Tj

Hi

Like I mentioned earlier, I only shoot NRA Bullseye Piistol at this point.  So, what's the difference between me showing up with a Colt SAA and a double barreled shotgun and shooting in Sodbuster class and showing up with the same two guns and shooting a town tamer side match?  I'm not required to shoot in the main match to shoot in side matches am I?

Thanks

Mike
Wichita KS

[Tjackstephens]

I am not sure on that question. At Regionals and the National shoots, the side matches are shot on a different day than the main matches. You must pre entry for the event. At West Side during the National we allow the club to shoot in the side matches (West Side). The non NCOWS members scores do not count toward awards however. At local levels, the side matches are usually after the main match. Tj 

[Cliff Fendley]

I agree with Texas Jack on the shotgun?handgun class. It does make a great side match combining with working cowboy.

I am for any class that will have enough acceptance and bring in new shooters but now seeing that the class has been tried with little acceptance in some posse, it was brought up at two JCR meetings as whether to add it as a trial class and only one person showed any interest at all.

If the class works for a local club in their area let them offer it but at this point I see no reason to add it as an official class for all posse.

We discussed the possibility of having a combo town tamer/working cowboy side match at the Eastern Regional. Personally I think that would be fun if enough are interested. I shot it at Green river and found it to be a lot of fun.

[Marshal Davis]

When we first started shotgun and one pistol is was as an alternate to the working cowboy class. We would allow whoever chose to use a shotgun and pistol to do so on half the stages so long as they complete the other half using rifle and pistol. It worked OK that way but it now seems more popular as its own class of town tamers who go through an entire match with just a shotgun and pistol. From month to month in any given month our shooters will be about evenly divided between working cowboys and town tamers. I have shot both and like both for different reasons. To me shooting a shotgun is not that much of a challenge so the emphasis falls on trying to really do better and concentrate on the pistol. In working cowboy there are challenges for both weapons. If I wanted to shoot four guns on every stage there are I believe four SASS clubs within easy driving distance of me. I would go there. But I prefer the feeling of being on stage with the guns I would normally carry most of the time which would be one pistol and a rifle. I like the classes used in the Frontier Army shooting. They also sound realistic, and plenty of fun. It was my understanding that NCOWS was started by cowboy shooters who also had experience with reenacting. The goal was to provide a venue to experience cowboy style shooting in a more realistic manner than was provided by SASS. To me SASS has always been about shooting certain guns (4) on every stage and with rifle and shotgun lying on a handy table just waiting for the cowboy to pick it up and engage targets in a given sequence. With NCOWS offering 2 and 3 gun options at our matches with a class for shotgun/pistol as well as rifle/pistol is certain to help draw in new shooters who just don't have the cash for four guns. It also creates a much more authentic atmosphere and feel for what the old west was really like. I'm very thankful we have outlawed the use of short stoke kits, shotgun slides, buscadero rigs, gun carts, and hopefully mousefart loads. I wish we could add to that list the shooting class that calls for someone to have two pistols a rifle and a shotgun all on every stage. That is the signature style of SASS. I just think we should aim a little higher. That is just my opinion but it also happens to be the opinion of the vast majority of our posse which is heavily reenactor oriented with just a few converts from SASS thrown in. And the requirement to shoot four guns on every stage is what ran most of the ex-SASS members to our posse. The best feature of all with NCOWS is that each posse gets to set its own style of shooting. The shooting style of members in Florida and Alabama may vary a bit from the style in Iowa or Missouri but from what I've seen and read on these posts we are mostly all much closer alike to each other than we are to any local SASS club. Maybe there is no way to eliminate certain classes unless we went strictly according to an authenticity approach. I just hate to see us be encumbered with 40 or 50 different classes. 

[Civil War Jack]

Reading about changing the shooting classes, getting new members was listed several times.  What about old shooters that no longer can shoot rifles or shotguns due to health reasons?  My doctor has advised to no longer shoot a shotgun and recommends that I do not shoot a rifle with my back problems. As it stands currently, I can not compete with other shooters because I do not have a class where only pistols are used.  Will I have to stop shooting because a class is not available for me to shoot in?  Let us try to keep the shooters we have now first and then worry about attracting new shooters.  Let me emphasize the word compete- allowing a person to shoot versus a person allowed to compete with fellow shooters for score is another.  With my health restrictions, shooting handguns are both enjoyable and fesible.  I am sure that I am not the only person with such problems.  Remember our bylaws address "physical limitations".

[Major 2]

I just spoke with a fellow on the phone .... He read about NCOWs on our site....

He saw Cracker Cow Cavalry and emailed,  I gave him my Phone #....

His main concern, cost!  He wants to join in, he knows about SASS, but 4 guns are out of the question (his estimate, $2000 at the get go)

He saw WC and Sod Buster @ NCOWS so we talked about those.... 2 guns are doable and in 38cal & Anty up the cost Shotshells, cheap at $6 or so a box for Estate Brand. He feels he can handle the fodder.

He has embraced Sodbuster, and plans to go in that direction .
CCC offers it as Main Match (frankly, I do not see a new person joining just for the occasional side match)

He's looking at either The Uberti Cattleman or a Remington with Kirst converter and the Century SXS hammer double.
Making him our 4th. Member (joining NCOWS) to shoot Sodbuster primarily.

He's 67 years young and as I said, is joining because SB is affordable....

[jefff]

if that gets them to come to your shoot great,but i wonder how long it will be til wants to trade his shotgun for a rifle?only about 100-200$ dif  to start with a rifle.
i think civil war jack is correct adding a handgun only class or alowing them subtitute two additional  revolvers for the rifle in present working cowboy class  at the national or regional shoots should be considered.jefff

[Major 2]

Well if he's like 99.9% like the rest of us ...he'll keep the shotgun, and when and if funds are there down the line, he'll get the next, and the next, and the next .

But for now, he's happy and joining in, and that is what & where he wants to be.

[bowiemaker]

That is exactly why I think NCOWS needs affordable entry level classes. So what if they add more guns and end up shooting in another class, we got them there in the first place and set the hook.

[Civil War Jack]

Just remember to keep us hooked.  Don't let us get off the hook.

[bowiemaker]

Just remember to keep us hooked.  Don't let us get off the hook.

Aboslutely. I don't think anyone wants to neglect our long-time supporters. I am a greenhorn in NCOWS but I intend to be shooting as long as I can. Provisions should be made to accomodate those of us who are starting to feel our age and our giddyup has got up and gone.

[Major 2]

That is exactly why I think NCOWS needs affordable entry level classes. So what if they add more guns and end up shooting in another class, we got them there in the first place and set the hook.

exactly ... affordable classes ! 

2, 3 and 4 gun classes......

2 guns with the understanding ( 1 pistol, 1 rifle or 1 shotgun ) affordable (certainly more affordable)

3 guns  ... 2 pistols 1 rifle  (or maybe 3 pistols  call it  Shootist ? ) 

4 guns ... your standard 2 pistols, 1 rifle & 1 shotgun

[RickB]

I like a lot of the ideas put forth on here. I agree that it would be good to bring in new members by using less firepower. 1 pistol and one long gun could do that. It's got my vote.

It doesn't matter what you do for me. I will come and shoot regardless. I own enough guns to take part in any of the classes pretty much. The only one I don't think I will ever qualify for is the Originals class. I won't use black powder myself. I love the boom and the smell but I hate the cleanup. I used to shoot BP but most of my modern guns don't work well with it. I'll just continue to use smokeless for my own sake. Yes. I'm lazy. 

I would like to see more side matches myself. Ones where I can shoot my pocket pistols and maybe try out a sharps.

Anyway, as a long time NCOWS member I remember back when only one pistol and one rifle were what we used.

I don't dislike SASS, but I don't want to see NCOWS be another SASS. I like the authenticity.

[bowiemaker]

One of the big draws for many in NCOWS is it's emphasis on authenticity. I have never seen a picture of anyone in the old west carrying 2 pistols, a rifle and a shotgun. I wonder which one they would drop when they had to fight.

[Tornado]

A simple rule change to Working Cowboy could cover alot of the issues.  Instead of requiring 1 pistol and 1 rifle(15 shots) have the rules state that Working Cowboy is a 15 shot class and allow on-the-clock reloads.  Someone with just 1 or 2  pistols can play and just reload.  Someone could also shoot 3 pistols and be competitive.  I don't know if only 1 rifle and reloading would be a good idea (too fast), state that at least one gun shall be a pistol.  1 pistol and 1 rifle would still be the best way but this makes this class an entry level class, a pistoleer class and rifle/ pistol class.  This would also add lots of variety and be period correct. 
Someone could buy 3 cap and ball revolvers for less than $600 and be competitive or spend $350 on used pistol and just have fun. 

[Cliff Fendley]

I guess after thinking about it the most puzzling part of NCOWS class structuring that I noticed when joining was why are all the less historically correct classes shooting 4 guns divided up in different hand holds and powder when working cowboy is all lumped together.

I suppose one could argue the originals is the one handed black powder two gun class so my argument is this. If the two gun classes are only divided into open or traditional why cant the other classes do the same thing?

The pistoleer class (which appeals to me very much), using older guns in a traditional method you are back to needing four guns.

The argument is we need to keep the class numbers to a limit and I agree, you can't have a class for everyone. Problem is that rule only applies if you want to be historically correct in an organization that is supposed to be striving for authenticity.

Basically as long as you are willing to carry around and shoot an arsenal of guns we have a special class just for you, if you want to be more authentic well just try and fit in.

Yep that's sounds right for an organization that is supposed to be thriving for authenticity.

[St. George]

Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2011, 02:11:39 pm »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There really doesn't need to be an entry-level class - not when 'Working Cowboy' uses the most basic of weaponry and such.

Weapons and leather-wise, it's the most affordable - and with little work, pretty much anyone who wants to put in the effort can look appropriate to the era.

Anything beyond that is dependant upon the individual's personal interest, and we can always offer guidance in how to find and modify clothing to fit the Impression.

As to pulling in young shooters - probably won't happen, unless they're already historically-minded.

The folks who actively shoot C&WAS are those who remember the romance of the TV Westerns and the oaters of the '50's and '60's - and those really don't have hollywood's support - though folks do say they like them.

I suspect more are viewed via 'Netflix' than on the Silver Screen.

Kids today dream differently and Gene and Roy aren't even close to their screen.

Posse-level shoots can do what they like - National-level shoots are (and should be) different - there should be an expected standard that isn't as important locally.

To reiterate:

If we're not careful, we'll be known as:

 'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...

So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.

Ride for the Brand!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Tjackstephens]

St. George, You are so correct. Tj

[jefff]

yes i think we do need to be careful about adding classes or changing structure that is why i suggested doing it on a posse level for a year to test it out before making recomendations to congress.with all the posses willing to try this we are more apt to find a workable solution without distressing the membership.jefff

[bowiemaker]

New shooters aren't necessarily young shooters. I didn't get into it until my mid-50s but the cost was still an issue.

[Tjackstephens]

I looked at the number of folks that have voted on this issue here on CAS City, 50 and of those 2 don't care. Not much of a count and many do not want a change. SASS has gone after the young by making their shoots speed, weak loads, slick guns, and close targets. Sure they feel that to stay alive they must get the young folks. I guess that is what this is all about, we need the young folks too. However what we have going for us is HISTORY.  Yes we like to shoot and love our guns too, but what brings us and will continue to bring folks to us is the love of the old west, the history of the old west. The people that join NCOWS are and always will be the ones that love that history. The clothes, leather, weapons, and the people from that time period. I don't think class changes will help one bit.
We already have the Working Cowboy class, that's the best thing we have going for us. The people that I speak for have only asked for one thing, a two handgun and one rifle. They like working cowboy, but would like to shoot two handguns, they don't want to shoot a shotgun.
I agree with Jeff, table it this year and let each posse try the different classes on a local and monthly matches. Tj

[Bow View Haymaker]

This is a combination of SASS?NCOWS and GAF classes we used for a while at CRC.

4 gun classes:
_____  Two hand / strong hand = Traditional, Shootists, Duelists.
_____  A gun for each hand = Double Duelist, Gunfighter.   
_____  Smoke makers  = Frontier Cartridge, Cap-n-ball.
No shotgun classes:
_____  Range detective = 2 handguns and rifle.
_____  Rifleman = 2, 10 round pistol caliber rifles.
_____  Josey Whales = handguns, no rifle.
2 gun classes: 
_____  Mil-spec repeater, Militia = I handgun and rifle caliber repeater.
_____  Mil-spec single shot, Buffalo Scout, Plainsman = 1 handgun and single shot rifle.
_____  Scout, Working Cowboy = 1 handgun and pistol caliber repeating rifle.
_____  Forager, = shotugn and 1 handgun.

[bowiemaker]

A simple rule change to Working Cowboy could cover alot of the issues.  Instead of requiring 1 pistol and 1 rifle(15 shots) have the rules state that Working Cowboy is a 15 shot class and allow on-the-clock reloads.  Someone with just 1 or 2  pistols can play and just reload.  Someone could also shoot 3 pistols and be competitive.  I don't know if only 1 rifle and reloading would be a good idea (too fast), state that at least one gun shall be a pistol.  1 pistol and 1 rifle would still be the best way but this makes this class an entry level class, a pistoleer class and rifle/ pistol class.  This would also add lots of variety and be period correct. 
Someone could buy 3 cap and ball revolvers for less than $600 and be competitive or spend $350 on used pistol and just have fun. 

I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.

[joec]

I don't know about other posses but at JCR it would be a real challenge to hit our rifle targets with a pistol.

Heck some of us have a problem hitting the pistol targets with a pistol.