To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question

[joec]

All,
I have revised my motion to add Men's & Womens 3 gun 1 revolver, 1 rifle, 1shotgun and allow hosting posses to sub-divide as they wish at Regional and National matches.  Which would leave 16 classes, instead of over 60 classes as we now have.
Yuma

Sorry I missed this post but this looks great to me. As I would like to shoot my shotgun but haven't. The one pistol, rifle and shotgun as well as working cowboy and sod buster classes would probably attract me the most. As a senior (65 and climbing) it really makes no difference to me about a senior class as I really just go to enjoy the people and have fun. The competition side of it really isn't that important to me and you can ask those that know me in JCR too. I think I've been pretty near the back every time.  

[Books OToole]

The smokless shooters that make up the largest shooting numbers at regional and national shoots seem to given the least respect in restructing.

I have stated in the past that; if there is any breeze at all, smokeless shooters do not have any advantage over BP shooters.

The main thing that needs to be separated is two-handed shooters cocking with the weak hand.  I have no problem with this style as long as they are not competeing with duelist/traditional shooters.

Books

[Tjackstephens]

Well here I go again, Books, I do not agree with you at all. I shoot blackpowder sometimes because it is fun. Never on any kind of day can I shoot blackpowder as fast as I do smokeless, one or two hand hold. I am quicker on a windy day, but still not as quick as with smokeless. If you and others are, more power to you. Tj

I don't think we should do away with the Original class. I even think that at sometimes during the National or Regional the folks shooting that class should tell their history. Tj

[jefff]

i find that shootin BP has its set of issues besides the smoke.loading ,lubing,cleaning,fouling,ignition,finding the right combo that the guns will accept over the lenght of the shoot.if no distinction is made i may get lazy and load smokless.now i have a choice to shoot with people that want use the dirty stuff and the issues it brings.i can also shoot black in smokless catagory if i need additional challange that day.
 this next year my plan is to shoot a different catagory at each shoot so i can try all before i even consider removing one.jefff

[bowiemaker]

I agree with Jeff. I want try different classes. I have coach gun and I would like to shoot it occasionally, but not at every match. I mootly shoot smokeless now but I would like to try shooting some black powder cartidges.

I think the answer to the lot of issues is to have side matches. I love it when I can shoot a match in WC and then get a chance to do something different for one stage in a side match. They did that at Green River and I thought it was great.

[Books OToole]

i find that shootin BP has its set of issues besides the smoke.loading ,lubing,cleaning,fouling,ignition,finding the right combo that the guns will accept over the lenght of the shoot..jefff

I agree that there are other considerations besides just smoke.  But other than being able to do light loads, I don't think there is an edge to smokeless.

I don't think we should do away with the Original class. I even think that at sometimes during the National or Regional the folks shooting that class should tell their history. Tj

TJ;  I believe that any Original shooter would be more than happy to discuss their character and the process used to create it.

Books

[Tjackstephens]

Books, I do think that would be a big plus. Maybe we cold work it at a time when a lot of the members would be able to attend. Have always thought that would be neat. Tj

[Cole Bluesteele]

Books & TJ,

As you know in my original proposal I seperated the classes into black powder and smokless classes.  I can live with a Traditional and Open split, but agree with TJ that a black powder and smokleless split is better. 

I believe that such a divison is more consistent with our historical perspective.   It allows the shooter to choose his propellant based on the time frame of his persona.  How a shooter would hold his firearm would have been a decision he made based on the circumstances of their use, not on the time frame of his persona.  It allows the shooter to decide what hold to use based on the scenario and stage setup.   

I would not support a deletion of the Originals class as it represents the zenith of the Levels of Authenticity to which we should all strive.

Ted

[jefff]

ok my position is this the shooters i represent support the current class system but will consider additonal classes .if you want to try restructing ideas on these try it and what level of intrest you have.sorry i can't think of any other compromise that will not reduce membership and attendance.jefff

[River City John]

Books & TJ,


I would not support a deletion of the Originals class as it represents the zenith of the Levels of Authenticity to which we should all strive.

Ted

Ted, et al


As far as the Originals, the only thing that sets it apart is the documentation portfolio. Shooting portion is the same as any other class, really.

I wonder if the Originals could be dropped as a separate class and treat the documentation portion as something like an added degree, accreditation, endorsement,- not sure what term would best describe it, that could be added to ANY class. That way you could shoot whatever combination of firearms your chosen persona that you document would have warranted.

I know the four gun categories may have to dig a bit deeper for historical examples, but such personages as visiting foreign dignitaries or European gentry that came to hunt our West, or people such as Custer, traveled with multiple and varied armament.


RCJ

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Ted, et al


As far as the Originals, the only thing that sets it apart is the documentation portfolio. Shooting portion is the same as any other class, really.

RCJ

RCJ,

I respectfully disagree.  The Originals competition is what sets them apart in my mind.  The peer review of the contestant's documentation, kit, and history is what I view as the core of the Original's Class.  To difuse that type of scrutiny throughout an entire match would be time prohibitive and would frighten off many dilettantes.

As Ted stated, the Originals is a zenith class.  Something that embodies the ideals our group stands for and who's expertise we should all be working toward.

[Cole Bluesteele]

Jefff,

We'll be definitely adding a 2 pistol and one rifle class and maybe a 2 pistol one shotgun class.  Will not drop any existing classes.  The divison of the two additonal classes will be determined by participation.  Let you know how it turns out between now and the convention.

Ted 

[jefff]

good deal ted.we don't start shootin til after the convention so my info will be awhile in coming .we know some will try it because it is new but i believe if you make it fun enough people will be drawn to it.learning how other posses operate is adding to how we run our clubs.best of luck and MERRY CHRISTMAS.jefff

[c.o.jones]

I suggest a split in the calibers we shoot. One class for 45 Colt and 44/40, and another class, the always embarrasing 38 Special with the mouse fart loads.

[John Smith]

I have seen "mouse fart" loads in both .45 Colt and 44/40 as well as .38 Special.  Don't stereotype by caliber.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Alas, but the sins of past omissions have yet returned to haunt NCOWS. This should have been done in 2005. Six years later & the same issues and the same reluctance yet again. 

[Marshal Davis]

Well I see this apparently is going to have no end and sadly also probably no result. There are some very good suggestions with merit and for some unknown reason the SASS style four gun competition keeps getting included. We are NCOWS and should try to structure our classes to resemble what would be seen in a frontier community at any given time. I like the two gun users where a pistol and rifle are utilized as well as a pistol and shotgun. Likewise the three gun concept I think is a good one, where a shooter would use two pistols and either a rifle or a shotgun as his long gun. For the life of me however I just cannot imagine any of us encountering someone on a frontier street with a pistol on each hip and a rifle in one hand and a shotgun in the other. Imagine starting a stage like that! Which long gun do you drop in the street in order to get the other one into action. For those who just have to shoot four guns on every stage there are plenty of SASS clubs that will deliver what you want.  The stages are structured at most SASS ranges for easy fast hits with the emphasis being on speed with all four guns and only 38 smokeless mousefart loads with shortstoke everything is really competitive. If you shoot bigbore traditional guns there with hardkicking full blackpowder loads you are going to finish on down the list even if you hit every target. It is a game that was invented utilizing the four guns common in the old west but not in a way that remotely resembled real old west shooting situations. Then along comes NCOWS with an idea to be more historically correct. Being the new kid competing with ann older established order of things we naturally are going to attract a more limited number of shooters but ones hopefully more like minded as a rule and shooters who not only enjoy shooting but also enjoy reading, studying and learning about our western history and culture. The point I'm getting to is this. If anyone can point to instances recorded of men carrying two pistols a rifle and a shotgun with them most of the time and resorting to all four in a fight, then I would readily consent to keeping the four gun classes. I can easily see the need for two and three gun classes with the only difference being the choice of carrying one or two revolvers, with the attendant breakdown by either male or female shooters. I also see the need to breakdown the classes by smokeless or blackpowder because it does make a difference. I think in NCOWS rules it is already stated that loads should be combat equivalent or at least up to original blackpowder velocity loads which would do away with the mousefart smokeless gamer loads that show up at many SASS matches. This should be enforced at least, just as we would not allow a short stroked model 66 in the lineup. I just fail to see the justification for continuing to copycat SASS with the four gun classes. If you just have to shoot all four guns on every stage go to a SASS match. They'd love to have you join in. Then when you want to shoot like it really would have been like to be in the old west come over to a NCOWS match for that experience. All of our new shooters be they young or older are in the two gun classes. Some later buy a third gun, usually a second pistol but they still just use one at a time at any given match. I think the economy has as much to do with difficulty recruiting as anything else and maybe more. I just don't want my old west shooting experience to resemble something from a $60.00 video game instead of something that occurred on a dusty street in a cowtown.  I prefer to shoot blackpowder because its more authentic and to me much more fun. I shoot one handed with revolvers because that too is more authentic. I'm not really worried about my placement in the scoring when compared to others as much as I am concerned about doing the best I can do that particular day with whatever guns I chose to bring. To me doing it the right way, the authentic way is what its all about. Oh and I almost forgot, I shoot 45's because they don't make a 46. I just will never compete in an NCOWS match that requires the use of a shotgun a rifle and two pistols all on the same stage. It just ain't right.       

[Bow View Haymaker]

I don'tknowif anyone saw this earlierin  this thread.

the Grand Army of the Frontier classes could be addapted,combined, and renamed to fit alot of what ya all are talking about.


"Marksman--
1-Milspec Repeating Rifle, smokeless powder.
2-Milspec Repeating Rifle, Black Powder.
(combine if numbers warrent)

--Rifleman--
3-Milspec Single Shot, Smokeless Powder.
4-Milspec Single Shot, Black Powder.
(Combine if Numbers warrent)

5-Militia-Lever action and/or civilian spec repeaters, rifle calibers.

6-Scout- Lever action, pistol calibers, single action revolvers.

7-Staff Officer- Handgun only, Milspec or of documented Military use in the Victorian era.  No loading aids.  The Staff Officer shall engage all targets, rifle and handgun, with his weapon. (the "Little" rule)

8-Infantry-Milspec rifle only.  Shall engage only designated rifle targets.
9-Buffalo Scout- Single shot hunting rifles (no ejectors), single action revolver.
10-Forager Scout- Single shot (ejectors allowed) double barrel (No ejectors) or lever action shotgun, single action revolver. (Bummer class!)  Target engagement as per the Match Director, reccomended to engage per rifle sequence on handgun targets.

""

See this for more ideas 
 http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html

[Will Ketchum]

Marshal Davis, I'm have no idea how long you have been a NCOWS member.  In the early days we mostly used 1 pistol, a rifle and a shotgun.  Some of stated that 2 long guns would be very authentic but that is what the members wanted.  Later many wanted to use 2 revolvers so the organization went with what the majority wanted.  There was no SASS clubs in the Midwest so many of our new members weren't that historical minded, they just wanted to shoot "cowboy".  There was a period of time that we didn't allow drawing from the leather and had to stage all revolvers and some started to use shotgun slides.  When the short stroked rifle issues became an issue we elected a new executive committee with Dave Scott being elected Marshal.  In those early years of his administration we had so many issues to deal with that we held 2 congress meeting a year.  Several of those meetings went on for 2 days and for several hours each day.  The results were that short stoke and shotgun slides were ruled illegal.  We lost several clubs because of the rules, ( which were by the way not really changes since we had never voted to allow those in the first place and no one had presented us with any documentation that either was historically used.)

About that time Marlan Ingram offered his 3 levels of of NCOWS authenticity.  I don't know that we ever voted to make it official but we came to think of it when thinking about where we fit in the organization.  

About that time several posses were trying a proposed new class which required only 1 pistol and a rifle it became our most popular class, Working Cowboy.

Then came the Originals Class first proposed in 2005.

This didn't stop many of our members shooting all 4 guns but it gave everybody a choice.  We have came full circle but if we eliminate 4 guns we will loose many members.  This is a membership ran organization we can only be as authentic as the majority desires.  What others choose to shoot should be no concern as long as long as each gun was available prior to 1899.

I hope this long explanation somewhat helps you understand how NCOWS developed and why we have 4 gun classes and why we most likely continue to do so.

Will Ketchum

[1961MJS]

Hi

I don't have much of a horse in this race.  I don't currently shoot cowboy.  I live in Kansas and would like to if I don't get forced to move to Seattle (a very real possibility).  My point in this discussion is to point out that the higher the entry cost in a sport, the fewer people will try it.  The fewer people who try a sport, the fewer people you will have JOINING that sport.  From my perspective, cowboy action shooting is tilted towards the newbie in this order:

1.  Grand Army of the Frontier.  More money on the clothes, but you only need a cap and ball revolver ($350) to shoot staff officer class (not shooting the staff officer).  Total firearms cost of $350.   

2.  NCOWS, with the working cowboy class.  ($350 if cap and ball, $450 if Colt replica) + ($700 to $1400) for a lever action rifle.  Same amount of money on the clothing.  Total firearms cost of $1050 to $1850.   

3.  SASS with the need for 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun ($500).  Total firearms cost of $2100 to $2800.   If memory serves, SASS also have requirements for extras such as spurs, leather wrist protection, wild rags, vests, and other cowboy attire.   

One alternative that no one has mentioned at this point is to break up the awards differently.  Instead of ONLY classing shooting scenarios that utilize 2, 3, or 4 firearms, have a class for single pistol, possibly with reloads. 

Another whopping $0.02.

Merry Xmas, Happy Hanukkah

Mike

[John Smith]

3.  SASS with the need for 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun ($500).  Total firearms cost of $2100 to $2800.   If memory serves, SASS also have requirements for extras such as spurs, leather wrist protection, wild rags, vests, and other cowboy attire

The only catagory that calls for specific clothing is "classic cowboy", and "B Western".  I shoot SASS and NCOWS wearing the same clothing, and firearms,

[1961MJS]

3.  SASS with the need for 2 revolvers, a lever action rifle, and a double barreled shotgun ($500).  Total firearms cost of $2100 to $2800.   If memory serves, SASS also have requirements for extras such as spurs, leather wrist protection, wild rags, vests, and other cowboy attire

The only category that calls for specific clothing is "classic cowboy", and "B Western".  I shoot SASS and NCOWS wearing the same clothing, and firearms,

TRUE, I had time to go back to the SASS handbook.  It's sort of a wash w.r.t. the clothing.  You still have to own more guns for SASS, but you have more leeway to scrimp on historical clothing in SASS Duelist and gunfighter classes.  If you DO choose to be more historically accurate, SASS (MAY)  make you buy more accessories (neckerchief, cuffs, vest, etc).  In the Originals from NCOWS, you just have to show you wouldn't have had them.

Mike
Wichita KS

[Mad_Dog]

I'm not an NCOWS member, I don't shoot cowboy yet, lurking on the edges of the forums....

That said -- imho the "one pistol, one shotgun" class would be very appealing to newcomers.  Yes, everyone and their brother will probably loan you their guns (I haven't experienced this as I haven't gone to a match yet, but y'all seem like a kindly bunch and I've experienced that kind of hospitality in my other hobbies -- oddballs tend to be a close-knit crowd), but there's something different about doing it with your own...

Regardless of what you call it, the cost-of-entry would be very low for a class like that.  Cap-n-Ball revolvers can be had for under $200 these days, and many of us have grandpa's old single-shot shotgun -- if not, a used or even brand-new SxS won't set you back all that far.

There are two reasons I don't play yet -- 1 is time (not much you can do about that) and the other is $$.  Between raising a family on one income, sending my wife to school, and paying off old debts, there's not much left in the "fun" fund.  I have other hobbies as well that compete for both my time and my $$, most of which I can participate in without a largish outlay of funds.  Shoot, if I had $2100 to $2800 in the bank right now I'd be looking at buying a second car, not a second gun .

Anyhow, just an outsiders perspective.  Take it for what it's worth (not much -- probably less than the 2c you paid for it)

-Mad Dog

[Major 2]

Thank you... Mad Dog      " imho the "one pistol, one shotgun" class would be very appealing to newcomers"

This is the main reason, I pinned the perposal to the 33rd Congress
At that time, there was some discussion,  some adjustment to the motion, more discussion and the motion was tabled for I believe 6 months
to see how it faired a local shoots..
It seemed well received by the Texans, Cracker Cow Cavalry (Fla.) enjoyed it Dec 3 , it was even shot at  Saluda Saddle Tramp shoot last May.  It seems to have a following, we see come March  

I do know this, it will contenue to be offered here in CCC country.

Oddball huh !  I resemble that remark !  

I enjoy  1 pistol & 1 SXS , well ,  because I have the guns and it's different
another Pard shoots it because that's what he can afford ( a Remy & a Century SXS ) a Rifle just is not in the cards.
Another who started because of 1 pistol  & 1 Shotgun (also a century SXS) , has just bought a Puma so he can do 3 gun..but said he still likes 1 pistol & 1 Shotgun and will now try WC ...still shooting 2 guns
he too has a child in grade school vieing for his $$ attention

[joec]

Thank you... Mad Dog      " imho the "one pistol, one shotgun" class would be very appealing to newcomers"

This is the main reason, I pinned the perposal to the 33rd Congress
At that time, there was some discussion,  some adjustment to the motion, more discussion and the motion was tabled for I believe 6 months
to see how it faired a local shoots..
It seemed well received by the Texans, Cracker Cow Cavalry (Fla.) enjoyed it Dec 3 , it was even shot at  Saluda Saddle Tramp shoot last May.  It seems to have a following, we see come March 

I do know this, it will contenue to be offered here in CCC country.

Oddball huh !  I resemble that remark ! 

I enjoy  1 pistol & 1 SXS , well ,  because I have the guns and it's different
another Pard shoots it because that's what he can afford ( a Remy & a Century SXS ) a Rifle just is not in the cards.
Another who started because of 1 pistol  & 1 Shotgun (also a century SXS) , has just bought a Puma so he can do 3 gun..but said he still likes 1 pistol & 1 Shotgun and will now try WC ...still shooting 2 guns
he to has a child in grade school vieing for his $$ attention

I would of loved to see this but shooting with Johnson Country Rangers, I seemed to be the only one that was for it when it came up. I would like to rotate between the pistol shotgun regardless of what they call it and Working Cowboy but really have no interest in the two pistol/rifle class. So I simply went with the flow as I also don't want to be the only one in a class either.

As a new member I guess I will stick to WC exclusively for next season. I do have the guns to even shoot in a 4 gun class just too much for my old hands in the course of a days shooting with the average of 5 or so stages. My right hand is pretty arthritic and little that I can do about it.