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Do you think we should restructure our shooting classes?

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Author Topic: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question  (Read 66045 times)

Offline c.o.jones

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2011, 10:14:23 PM »
EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. I am Life Member 5610 of SASS. I am NCOWS member 1097.  Just because SASS started this sport does not mean we need to play FOLLOW THE LEADER.  I stopped shooting SASS matches many years ago. I shoot NCOWS matches only. I ride for the brand. We don't need 150 classes. Simplify the game. One catagory I detest is the 2 handguns, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun. We need to stick with the authenticity that is unique to NCOWS. Go back to 1870. What is your persona? What guns would you CARRY AND USE? If you feel its necessary to carry 2 handguns, 2 rifles, 1 shotgun, 1 buffalo gun, 1 guncart, 1 pony and a lawnchair then SASS is for you. If being authentic in dress and gear and shooting as it used to be is more to your liking then NCOWS is the choice. I am for change but lets do it OUR WAY.  .............WE ARE NCOWS..........
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Offline Cash Creek

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2011, 02:15:27 AM »
I'm 100%  with you Mr. Jones..
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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2011, 05:51:35 AM »
EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. ........ Just because SASS started this sport does not mean we need to play FOLLOW THE LEADER.  I stopped shooting SASS matches many years ago. I shoot NCOWS matches , for NCOWS, I prefer the brand. (on ocassion however, I might shoot SASS or not ! ) .  
 We don't need 150 classes. Simplify the game. .  .............WE ARE NCOWS..........
 < I paraphrase Mr. CO Jones .....



 I like Yuma Kids approch... "local clubs can sub-divide these as they like"  he suggests 2 ,3 & 4 gun classes which should appeal to all ...
Local clubs can even offer two pistol only should there be a following.  
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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #43 on: Today at 10:47:31 AM »

Offline Cole Bluesteele

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2011, 09:51:18 AM »
As we get closer to a viable proposal I wish to remind everyone WHY this discussion started.  The two reasons are as follows:

The National Congress of Old West Shootists (NCOWS) was founded in 1994 to promote "safe Western Action Shooting including the re-enactment and promotion of the historical Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity" during the period 1865 to 1899.

Whereas, all but four of our current classes require the use of four firearms, which historical evidence clearly shows is not the typical equipment of persons living in the Old West, our existing shooting classes do NOT permit our members to experience the historical Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity during the period 1865 to 1899.  Clearly, these existing shooting classes are not consistent with our mission statement. 

1.   Therefore, in order to provide our members a unique western shooting experience that honors the Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity history as stated above and reflects the reality of gunplay in the Old West, we propose that NCOWS replace all of the existing shooting classes.

2.   We propose that such a restructuring will not only make NCOWS unique and Historically accurate, it will also attract new members which are paramount to the success of NCOWS.

Offline Rowdy Fulcher

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2011, 07:10:14 PM »
Howdy
As we talk about changes maybe we need to look at what classes are being shoot . If we look at the last 5 National Shoots and the Regional shoots What classes are being shot ? What classes aren't ? Do we need more or less ? Are we purely Historical ? or are we a Shooting organization ? What do the members of the Posses want ? We need to think and then make a decision . We want to attract more members and at the same time hold on to the old members . We always need to be recruiting to keep our membership GROWING . Hows our Recruiting going ?

Offline Dynamite Bill

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2011, 07:21:01 PM »
if"n yawl r so hellbent on shootin them nu classes, why don"t cha jus start yer own deal and see how she goes!
The main thing to remember,is not to get excited!

Offline J.D. Goodguy

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2011, 07:45:46 PM »
The longer this goes on the worse it seems to get.  Do you know what we have now?  We only have 20 classes.  Do you shoot black or smokeless?  Do you shoot 1 handed or 2?  Do you shoot men or women?  If you only want to shoot 2 guns and get started on the cheap, we have Working Cowboy.  Then we have the age based classes.  How much easier can you make it and still separate the powder and the 1 versus 2 hand hold?  I see no need for the Originals class since we already have Working Cowboy.  Drop that class and add a pistol only class and we have all we need.  Just my 2 cents worth but this is headed down hill at the rate it is going.  Like Texas Jack said, if some of these things pass, we will lose shooters.

Offline John William McCandles

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2011, 08:20:24 PM »
The longer this goes on the worse it seems to get.  Do you know what we have now?  We only have 20 classes.  Do you shoot black or smokeless?  Do you shoot 1 handed or 2?  Do you shoot men or women?  If you only want to shoot 2 guns and get started on the cheap, we have Working Cowboy.  Then we have the age based classes.  How much easier can you make it and still separate the powder and the 1 versus 2 hand hold?  I see no need for the Originals class since we already have Working Cowboy.  Drop that class and add a pistol only class and we have all we need.  Just my 2 cents worth but this is headed down hill at the rate it is going.  Like Texas Jack said, if some of these things pass, we will lose shooters.


I must agree with both JD and TJ. Do we really need a change of all classes? May be best to leave it be and maybe add a pistol only class.

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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2011, 09:44:05 AM »
Yuma Kid, In your motion you would do away with the Elder and Senior Class. Guess on a National or Regional shoot you could not sub -divide 60's and 70's would shoot in what ever class. Why then would you keep a boys and girls class (12 -17)? Looks to me that we are headed for some problems Tj  ???
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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2011, 10:19:06 AM »
TJ:
Although not many youngsters shoot with us, they are the future of the sport.  The Jr classes must stay if we are to survive past the demise of our generation.  Cole Bluesteele did a breakdown of the Nationals for the past 2 years and our SW Regionals by class.  I am not sure where he posted the chart, but there were very few Senior or Elder Shooters that participated.  There may be more that shoot in the monthly local shoots, but I have no knowledge as we do not have any at BBS.

To the folks wanting to drop the Originals:  The class fills a niche for the people that want to improve their personna and gear to a higher level than the minimum requirement.  The Originals class does not effect the scoring or the outcome of any other class.  I am not an Original, but my thought is if you are not an Original then leave it be.

I think we need to add the Sodbuster as it is an economical entry level into the sport and possibly add the pistol only class and leave the rest alone since most here are against changes.

T-Joe
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Offline Cash Creek

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2011, 11:29:56 AM »
I not so sure we are attracting the young group..the last ones to join the club I belong to were it the 45 to 55 age group..I started two years ago and I'm over 65, most of the 25 to 40 age are toooo busy raising kids and don't have the $$$ for our sport..

Just my 2 cents..CC
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Offline Tascosa Joe

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2011, 12:33:48 PM »
My son is 38.  He shoots with the SST when he is not deployed.  We have several somewhat regular Jr Shooters at our club.  One is turning 16, 3 are 13, and we have 2 below 10.  These kids are the future, I am refering to.  All are either children or grandchildren of regular shooters, but that is how my 38 yr old got addicted to CAS.
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Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2011, 12:54:09 PM »
I not so sure we are attracting the young group..the last ones to join the club I belong to were it the 45 to 55 age group..I started two years ago and I'm over 65, most of the 25 to 40 age are toooo busy raising kids and don't have the $$$ for our sport..

Just my 2 cents..CC

That's the ideology that will hurt us.  If we see more kids, teens, and 20 year-olds on the range, then like minded folks will join us.  NCOWS has become a great experience for my son and I.   I'd much rather have Trevor out on the range shooting $2 worth of ammo at a 3 hour match, than see him sitting at home playing a $60 video game for 3 hours.   I am happy that I am a member of an organzation that fosters kids his age to shoot.

Discretionary dollars for hobbies are all relative.  I know folks who spend 10 times what we do on motorcycle hobbies.  I also know IDPA shooters who have tricked-out auto pistols that cost 4 times what a new Uberti revolver does.  It's all relative and more importantly how you present the sport's start up costs to interested parties really helps retain folks interest.  Everyone's income levels are different, but we all get to decide how and when to spend our "hobby dollars."

I do believe that folks in the firearm community view CAS/WAS as an "expensive" past time due to 1) "Four guns" 2) "Costumes" and 3) "Expensive antique ammo".  Those are opinions I've heard numerous times when we talk to the shooting public at gun shows and such.  When talking with folks, those three issues need to be addressed.

We as a group, need to stress avenues into the sport that minimize expense like working cowboy and purchasing used firearms through the local WAS community.  Also, I stress to folks that they can always try out the sport with borrowed guns.  Folks that enjoy the experience, quickly find a way to shunt some income toward gettting the necessary gear.

As with any organization or institution, if we are not growing then we are dying.
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Offline Yuma Kid

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2011, 03:47:18 PM »
Texas Jack,
If the hosting club of the Nationals and Regional shoots want to sub-divide the 14 classes, that would be up to them.  I'll even revise my motion to make sure that is clear.  My point in making my motion to remove the requirement for clubs to offer over 60 classes and yet make sure when a person goes to a local shoot they know there will be at least a class for the guns you brought.
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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2011, 05:15:27 PM »
Of course, I do not want to do away with the younger folks getting into our sport. My only thought just because us older folks are leaving this world or unable to shoot anymore, if you lump all into certain groups by the weapons you use, then it should be everyone. In the old west age would not have mattered, that seem to be what you are saying by doing this.
As I read these post over and over it seems to be that we have forgotten that this is just a shooting sport. We do want to be as correct in our dress, weapons, and ideals as we can. But it seems to be getting a little out of hand. Are you all sure we really need to change anything? Tj  ???
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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2011, 05:54:18 PM »
Pancho, That's not ideology, he's just making a statement on what he sees at his club, which is a large one. No one is saying that they do not want younger people. It's just a fact that we are not getting a large amount. With us having a working cowboy class already in place, don't see how these changes are going to make much of a difference. Guess we will have to wait till a vote comes up and if a change takes place, then see what happens. Tj
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Offline Bow View Haymaker

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2011, 07:14:09 PM »
I don't have a dog in this fight but have been watching. 

Has anyone looked at the GAF classes? 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html

I know it wouldn't be a perfect fit but it could be start.  Combine the milspec and civilian classes and you might be close.  several 2 gunclasses (single shot rifle and1 handgun, repeating rifle caliber and 1 handgun, repeating pistol caliber and 1 handgun, or shotgun and 1 handgun) or the handgung only or rifle only classes. 
Ihaveseenthe GAF classes work at our musters.  Reloads are the norm.  Must hit knockdowns are common. 
Many shooters enjoy the more realistic approach. 

Just my view from hear.
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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2011, 09:41:48 AM »
...

Discretionary dollars for hobbies are all relative.  I know folks who spend 10 times what we do on motorcycle hobbies.  I also know IDPA shooters who have tricked-out auto pistols that cost 4 times what a new Uberti revolver does.  It's all relative and more importantly how you present the sport's start up costs to interested parties really helps retain folks interest.  Everyone's income levels are different, but we all get to decide how and when to spend our "hobby dollars."

I do believe that folks in the firearm community view CAS/WAS as an "expensive" past time due to 1) "Four guns" 2) "Costumes" and 3) "Expensive antique ammo".  Those are opinions I've heard numerous times when we talk to the shooting public at gun shows and such.  When talking with folks, those three issues need to be addressed.

We as a group, need to stress avenues into the sport that minimize expense like working cowboy and purchasing used firearms through the local WAS community.  Also, I stress to folks that they can always try out the sport with borrowed guns.  Folks that enjoy the experience, quickly find a way to shunt some income toward getting the necessary gear.

As with any organization or institution, if we are not growing then we are dying.

Hiya Pancho

I agree with your post, but my reasoning for supporting restructuring is a little different.  The $ spent on a hobby we're done for a while are easy to justify, at least in OUR minds.  Any $ spent on a NEW hobby that we THINK we'd like to TRY aren't as easy to justify.  Borrowing guns is a nice opportunity, but one that doesn't answer all of the problems. Many of us don't feel comfortable  borrowing a gun for a match.  Ammunition isn't cheap (even in a borrowed gun), the ammunition for that borrowed gun is probably reloaded (not by "me"), and not everyone likes to have store-bought ammunition shot in their gun. 

Other shooting sports allow easier entry to the sport by having different classes and allowing only portions of the entire match to be shot.  You're allowed to shoot only the 12 gauge portion of a skeet match (12, 20, 28, and .410).  You can shoot NRA Action Pistol with your concealed carry gun.  You can shoot only the .22LR portion of an NRA Conventional Pistol Match.  If NCOWS can find an "entry" class, that can be shot with a gun that is either already owned by many Americans (not exactly likely), or is relatively inexpensive (Colt SAA knockoff's are roughly $500, which is just over the average price in my local gun shop), that would HELP spread the sport.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

Offline Cole Bluesteele

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2011, 10:34:12 AM »
Mike,

How about a "Greenhorn" class to do what your suggesting?  Shoot what you brung as long as it is NCOWS legal.  No awards, just grins.

Ted

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2011, 12:11:44 PM »
Cole at a local level that might be fine ...
I would not expect a Greenhorn attending a Reg. or the Nat'l with the plan to compete.
So if have the entry level "Greenhorn" it would not need be a class or even timed.
Just a shoot what you got (NCOWS legal) and enjoy, maybe get hooked and go the whole nut.

I proposed Sodbuster ( not my coined name but it works) as a entry level class.
The Idea was one just might have a old double , or Colt or Remington replica or both.
Here is a class, he could compete in..

Or if he were to buy in ..a NIB Century SXS is roughly $300 and currently a Remy NM Army is $179
So @ $479. cost for those guns, at about the cost of one new SAA Replica Cartridge Revolver...
  ..he has class to compete in .

Sure the class is open to all comers with NCOWS legal shotguns & Revolvers.
Only reloads would be the Shotgun to even the field with cartridge arms...

We have Working Cowboy and it is very popular . Sodbuster has been well received and I think it would be a benefit
to NCOWS


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