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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  NCOWS (Moderators: Will Ketchum, St. George)  |  Topic: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Question: Do you think we should restructure our shooting classes?
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Author Topic: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question  (Read 18914 times)
Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 03:50:23 pm »

Did we loose members to SASS because they thought they were more historically correct Huh

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Michael Tatham


« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2011, 03:54:11 pm »

Did we loose members to SASS because they thought they were more historically correct Huh



If we have, I'm not sure we wanted them.

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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 04:02:46 pm »

Am I the only one that likes things the way they are? So far the people that I speak for have only asked for one thing. They would like to see a two handgun and one rifle class. Tj
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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2011, 04:10:27 pm »

If we're not careful, we'll be known as:

 'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...

So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.

Ride for the Brand!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2011, 04:16:27 pm »

Another way to "think out side the box" on shooting matches:  Time limited stages.

Rather than a course of fire with a limited number of firearms & cartridges, limit the time on the stage.

Example:  12 target array.  Shooter has 40 seconds to engage targets in any order.  All targets must be hit once, then shooter may engage array again, time permiting.  If all targets are hit twice, shooter may engage array for a 3rd time, etc....  Shooter may use any weapson(s) in any combination that are main match legal.  Reloads allowed. 

The person with the most "hits" in 40 seconds is the winner of the stage.

We ran a couple of the side matches this way at the SW Regional.  They went well.
 
Downsides to this:

Shooter will likely have live rounds in their arms at the end of the stage which will need to be unloaded.
Shotguns will have an advantage here.  Fix:  limit the number of shotshells per stage to a max of 4.  (If the shooter chooses to use a shotgun.)

Hi

I think that the time limited stage is a great idea.  I think that the whole concept of needing to shoot say 8-20 bad guys from cover is a valid Old West scenario, especially for an Indian War era soldier.  To be safe, this stage could be run using a rifle OR shotgun and one revolver.  In order to safely reload, the shooter would be behind cover, but not allowed to sweep the crowd. 

Later
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Mike

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Cole Bluesteele
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« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2011, 04:46:48 pm »

We will be adding classes also.

We are not losing members to SASS.  Actually we are getting SASS members.  Some shoot both.  Some just with NCOWS.

The Prime Directive to restructure is to GET NEW MEMBERS by offfering shooters an experience different from other WAS venues while staying true to our historical heritage.

Ted
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Ima Sure Shot
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« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2011, 06:31:46 pm »

If you are changing classes, We have at least one class that should be dropped, the Originals. We do not have overall top shooter for a reason.  Saying you have so many seconds to shoot this stage - that is a problem. Do you set the average time to what I shoot it in or one of the Top Sass Shooters? Big difference in 60 sec. and 15 sec.  On the other hand, shooting until all targets are hit is the reverse.  Some shooters  would not finish a single stage in a two day shoot. Classes based on equipment, or ability? Or both. How do we want to approach this.  Above all, we need to keep in mind that most of our shooters do not keep abreast of what class they are in now.  I go - I shoot.   If it were only that simple.  It is never equal, simply because of the choice of equipment. A good 73 shooter will always beat a great Spencer shooter based simply on time. If classes are changed,IMHO Classes should be simple and few.
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Okefinokee Outlaw
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2011, 06:52:52 pm »

Cole,  I have not received your e-mail.
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Cliff Fendley
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 08:11:32 pm »

So far the people that I speak for have only asked for one thing. They would like to see a two handgun and one rifle class. Tj

That is what I've heard too. I've heard a couple thoughts about an elder working cowboy class.
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Dynamite Bill
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 11:07:54 pm »

i am wit Texas Jack, i like the way it is now. besides, anyone that shook the hand of Paul Bear Bryant KNOWS THANGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2011, 09:27:59 am »

Bill, he ought to KNOW THANGS, for sure.  I spent an afternoon with the Bear and his Labrador Retriever when we lived in Alabama back in the 70's.  We have something for everyone as it stands now.  Clubs can experiment all they want to encourage new shooters at their monthly shoots withour changing the structure in place.  Hope youall have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.    JD
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Pancho Peacemaker
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2011, 10:06:44 am »

  Saying you have so many seconds to shoot this stage - that is a problem. Do you set the average time to what I shoot it in or one of the Top Sass Shooters? Big difference in 60 sec. and 15 sec. 


In a "time limited" match, you might use 4 classes:

Youth:  50 seconds per stage
"Shootist" (open class):  20 seconds per stage
"Sharpshooter"  (handicap open class):  40 seconds per stage
Senior:  50 seconds per stage

Split between male and female and you have 8 simple classes.

Again, scoring in this enviroment would be most "hits" in the allotted time.  Shooter can use any legal NCOWS main match weapon in any safe combination.  i.e:  Shooter could use one pistol and reload as needed or shooter could use the traditional 4 gun CAS kit, or any combination there in.
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 11:16:37 am »

I tell you all one thing. I am glad that all this must be voted on. If some of these ideals come about I would never shoot another NCOWS match. Now tell me, how would that gain more members? Sure glad that this is only talking about ideals and everyone has the right to express. Tj
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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2011, 11:31:30 am »

I tell you all one thing. I am glad that all this must be voted on. If some of these ideals come about I would never shoot another NCOWS match. Now tell me, how would that gain more members? ...

Hi TJ

I understand your pain.  The way to get more shooters is to make it EASY and Less EXPENSIVE to join up.  A coach gun and a single revolver is a lot more likely than two revolvers, a lever action, AND a shotgun (SASS).  A borrowing shotgun and a personal revolver is even more likely.  If I like it, I can eventually buy my way to a full SASS rig with a goat cart full of stuff, if I don't I only have one or two extra guns to clean or sell.

After all, there IS a reason we have IDPA, IPSC, and NRA Action Pistol as well as NRA Conventional Pistol, NRA International Pistol, and I'm sure that there are others. 

Later
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Mike

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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2011, 01:32:41 pm »

All,
I intend to make a motion to restruction the current 60-some number of classes down to 14.  All may be shot with your choice of powder or shooting style.   I will also stipulate that local clubs can sub-divide these as they like.  By age, powder type and shooting style.
Yuma

Men's   4-gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's   3-Gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Men's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Men's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Men's   Pistoleer   2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's   Original   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's   4-gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's   3-Gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Women's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Women's   Pistoleer   2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's   Original   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Boy's 12-17)   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Girl's (12-17)   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2011, 11:14:23 pm »

EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. I am Life Member 5610 of SASS. I am NCOWS member 1097.  Just because SASS started this sport does not mean we need to play FOLLOW THE LEADER.  I stopped shooting SASS matches many years ago. I shoot NCOWS matches only. I ride for the brand. We don't need 150 classes. Simplify the game. One catagory I detest is the 2 handguns, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun. We need to stick with the authenticity that is unique to NCOWS. Go back to 1870. What is your persona? What guns would you CARRY AND USE? If you feel its necessary to carry 2 handguns, 2 rifles, 1 shotgun, 1 buffalo gun, 1 guncart, 1 pony and a lawnchair then SASS is for you. If being authentic in dress and gear and shooting as it used to be is more to your liking then NCOWS is the choice. I am for change but lets do it OUR WAY.  .............WE ARE NCOWS..........
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« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2011, 03:15:27 am »

I'm 100%  with you Mr. Jones..
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« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2011, 06:51:35 am »

EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE. ........ Just because SASS started this sport does not mean we need to play FOLLOW THE LEADER.  I stopped shooting SASS matches many years ago. I shoot NCOWS matches , for NCOWS, I prefer the brand. (on ocassion however, I might shoot SASS or not ! ) .  
 We don't need 150 classes. Simplify the game. .  .............WE ARE NCOWS..........
 < I paraphrase Mr. CO Jones .....



 I like Yuma Kids approch... "local clubs can sub-divide these as they like"  he suggests 2 ,3 & 4 gun classes which should appeal to all ...
Local clubs can even offer two pistol only should there be a following.  
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Cole Bluesteele
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« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2011, 10:51:18 am »

As we get closer to a viable proposal I wish to remind everyone WHY this discussion started.  The two reasons are as follows:

The National Congress of Old West Shootists (NCOWS) was founded in 1994 to promote "safe Western Action Shooting including the re-enactment and promotion of the historical Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity" during the period 1865 to 1899.

Whereas, all but four of our current classes require the use of four firearms, which historical evidence clearly shows is not the typical equipment of persons living in the Old West, our existing shooting classes do NOT permit our members to experience the historical Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity during the period 1865 to 1899.  Clearly, these existing shooting classes are not consistent with our mission statement. 

1.   Therefore, in order to provide our members a unique western shooting experience that honors the Old West heritage of the United States in all its ethnic, social and occupational diversity history as stated above and reflects the reality of gunplay in the Old West, we propose that NCOWS replace all of the existing shooting classes.

2.   We propose that such a restructuring will not only make NCOWS unique and Historically accurate, it will also attract new members which are paramount to the success of NCOWS.
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Rowdy Fulcher
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« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2011, 08:10:14 pm »

Howdy
As we talk about changes maybe we need to look at what classes are being shoot . If we look at the last 5 National Shoots and the Regional shoots What classes are being shot ? What classes aren't ? Do we need more or less ? Are we purely Historical ? or are we a Shooting organization ? What do the members of the Posses want ? We need to think and then make a decision . We want to attract more members and at the same time hold on to the old members . We always need to be recruiting to keep our membership GROWING . Hows our Recruiting going ?
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Dynamite Bill
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« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2011, 08:21:01 pm »

if"n yawl r so hellbent on shootin them nu classes, why don"t cha jus start yer own deal and see how she goes!
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« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2011, 08:45:46 pm »

The longer this goes on the worse it seems to get.  Do you know what we have now?  We only have 20 classes.  Do you shoot black or smokeless?  Do you shoot 1 handed or 2?  Do you shoot men or women?  If you only want to shoot 2 guns and get started on the cheap, we have Working Cowboy.  Then we have the age based classes.  How much easier can you make it and still separate the powder and the 1 versus 2 hand hold?  I see no need for the Originals class since we already have Working Cowboy.  Drop that class and add a pistol only class and we have all we need.  Just my 2 cents worth but this is headed down hill at the rate it is going.  Like Texas Jack said, if some of these things pass, we will lose shooters.
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John William McCandles
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« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2011, 09:20:24 pm »

The longer this goes on the worse it seems to get.  Do you know what we have now?  We only have 20 classes.  Do you shoot black or smokeless?  Do you shoot 1 handed or 2?  Do you shoot men or women?  If you only want to shoot 2 guns and get started on the cheap, we have Working Cowboy.  Then we have the age based classes.  How much easier can you make it and still separate the powder and the 1 versus 2 hand hold?  I see no need for the Originals class since we already have Working Cowboy.  Drop that class and add a pistol only class and we have all we need.  Just my 2 cents worth but this is headed down hill at the rate it is going.  Like Texas Jack said, if some of these things pass, we will lose shooters.


I must agree with both JD and TJ. Do we really need a change of all classes? May be best to leave it be and maybe add a pistol only class.

Regards
JW
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« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2011, 10:44:05 am »

Yuma Kid, In your motion you would do away with the Elder and Senior Class. Guess on a National or Regional shoot you could not sub -divide 60's and 70's would shoot in what ever class. Why then would you keep a boys and girls class (12 -17)? Looks to me that we are headed for some problems Tj  Huh
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« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2011, 11:19:06 am »

TJ:
Although not many youngsters shoot with us, they are the future of the sport.  The Jr classes must stay if we are to survive past the demise of our generation.  Cole Bluesteele did a breakdown of the Nationals for the past 2 years and our SW Regionals by class.  I am not sure where he posted the chart, but there were very few Senior or Elder Shooters that participated.  There may be more that shoot in the monthly local shoots, but I have no knowledge as we do not have any at BBS.

To the folks wanting to drop the Originals:  The class fills a niche for the people that want to improve their personna and gear to a higher level than the minimum requirement.  The Originals class does not effect the scoring or the outcome of any other class.  I am not an Original, but my thought is if you are not an Original then leave it be.

I think we need to add the Sodbuster as it is an economical entry level into the sport and possibly add the pistol only class and leave the rest alone since most here are against changes.

T-Joe
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