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Author Topic: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question  (Read 66040 times)

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2011, 07:21:13 AM »
I don't see the four gun classes going anywhere. I don't have any desire to shoot it but a lot of people do. That's why I never got into CAS until I found out about NCOWS. Basically I don't care to shoot a shotgun at a still target and that's mostly what I was seeing. Would have liked to had one on that running man at the Nationals though. :P
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Offline J.D. Goodguy

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2011, 09:19:06 AM »
Will Ketchum, good point.  Reading some of these posts it seems that some people forget that we are a shooting group.  If  you only have 6 or 8 people show up to shoot, then you can do a lot of different things and not take up a lot of time.  If you have 30 shooters show up you are more limited in your stages.  If you cut back and only shoot a few shots you will start to lose those people who come to shoot and not discuss history.  Like you I have talked with several people who for different reasons would like a class with only pistols.  Having shot this a couple of times it does add to a shoot and is a lot of fun.  As we get older shooting a long gun gets to be less fun.  I am against changes just for the sake of changes.  There are some class changes that would be an improvement but to throw out all of our classes just because some non shooters would like to read about more period shooting events is not the way to go.  We need to be looking at ways to grow the organization, not run off the shooters we have that are supporting the organization.    If we have NCOWS sanctioned shoots, we must offer all of the NCOWS approved classes, even if only 1 shooter shows for each class.  At our monthly shoots we can add other classes that we deem fun and different but we still have to offer the official classes.  Rather than proposing to change all of our classes why don't the SHOOTING POSSES take this next year and try some of these different styles or classes in addition to what we have and see where the most interest lies.  Then if needed we can put our heads together and propose needed changes that people will shoot not just talk about.

Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 10:35:05 AM »
Another way to "think out side the box" on shooting matches:  Time limited stages.

Rather than a course of fire with a limited number of firearms & cartridges, limit the time on the stage.

Example:  12 target array.  Shooter has 40 seconds to engage targets in any order.  All targets must be hit once, then shooter may engage array again, time permiting.  If all targets are hit twice, shooter may engage array for a 3rd time, etc....  Shooter may use any weapson(s) in any combination that are main match legal.  Reloads allowed. 

The person with the most "hits" in 40 seconds is the winner of the stage.

We ran a couple of the side matches this way at the SW Regional.  They went well.
 
Downsides to this:

Shooter will likely have live rounds in their arms at the end of the stage which will need to be unloaded.
Shotguns will have an advantage here.  Fix:  limit the number of shotshells per stage to a max of 4.  (If the shooter chooses to use a shotgun.)



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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #23 on: Today at 05:42:00 AM »

Offline Cole Bluesteele

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 01:57:18 PM »
For what its worth, I have emailed the posse rep's and/or contacts listed on the NCOWS website to see what additional or different from the National and Regional match classes they offer at their monthly matches.  Idea wa sto find a starting point based on what was already being used successfully at the posse level.

Unfortunately, to date I have only heard from four!

Ted


Offline jefff

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 02:27:49 PM »
i plan on making a motion at our jcr meeting to add some classes for one year to see how they go.it seems to me that adding classes is more favorable than taking ones away.i do have one question, are the other ncows posses losing members to sass because they think sass is more is more historically correct?jefff

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 02:50:23 PM »
Did we loose members to SASS because they thought they were more historically correct ???

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Offline Books OToole

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2011, 02:54:11 PM »
Did we loose members to SASS because they thought they were more historically correct ???



If we have, I'm not sure we wanted them.

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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 03:02:46 PM »
Am I the only one that likes things the way they are? So far the people that I speak for have only asked for one thing. They would like to see a two handgun and one rifle class. Tj
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Offline St. George

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2011, 03:10:27 PM »
If we're not careful, we'll be known as:

 'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...

So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.

Ride for the Brand!

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2011, 03:16:27 PM »
Another way to "think out side the box" on shooting matches:  Time limited stages.

Rather than a course of fire with a limited number of firearms & cartridges, limit the time on the stage.

Example:  12 target array.  Shooter has 40 seconds to engage targets in any order.  All targets must be hit once, then shooter may engage array again, time permiting.  If all targets are hit twice, shooter may engage array for a 3rd time, etc....  Shooter may use any weapson(s) in any combination that are main match legal.  Reloads allowed. 

The person with the most "hits" in 40 seconds is the winner of the stage.

We ran a couple of the side matches this way at the SW Regional.  They went well.
 
Downsides to this:

Shooter will likely have live rounds in their arms at the end of the stage which will need to be unloaded.
Shotguns will have an advantage here.  Fix:  limit the number of shotshells per stage to a max of 4.  (If the shooter chooses to use a shotgun.)

Hi

I think that the time limited stage is a great idea.  I think that the whole concept of needing to shoot say 8-20 bad guys from cover is a valid Old West scenario, especially for an Indian War era soldier.  To be safe, this stage could be run using a rifle OR shotgun and one revolver.  In order to safely reload, the shooter would be behind cover, but not allowed to sweep the crowd. 

Later

Offline Cole Bluesteele

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2011, 03:46:48 PM »
We will be adding classes also.

We are not losing members to SASS.  Actually we are getting SASS members.  Some shoot both.  Some just with NCOWS.

The Prime Directive to restructure is to GET NEW MEMBERS by offfering shooters an experience different from other WAS venues while staying true to our historical heritage.

Ted

Offline Ima Sure Shot

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2011, 05:31:46 PM »
If you are changing classes, We have at least one class that should be dropped, the Originals. We do not have overall top shooter for a reason.  Saying you have so many seconds to shoot this stage - that is a problem. Do you set the average time to what I shoot it in or one of the Top Sass Shooters? Big difference in 60 sec. and 15 sec.  On the other hand, shooting until all targets are hit is the reverse.  Some shooters  would not finish a single stage in a two day shoot. Classes based on equipment, or ability? Or both. How do we want to approach this.  Above all, we need to keep in mind that most of our shooters do not keep abreast of what class they are in now.  I go - I shoot.   If it were only that simple.  It is never equal, simply because of the choice of equipment. A good 73 shooter will always beat a great Spencer shooter based simply on time. If classes are changed,IMHO Classes should be simple and few.

Offline Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2011, 05:52:52 PM »
Cole,  I have not received your e-mail.

Offline Cliff Fendley

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2011, 07:11:32 PM »
So far the people that I speak for have only asked for one thing. They would like to see a two handgun and one rifle class. Tj

That is what I've heard too. I've heard a couple thoughts about an elder working cowboy class.
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Offline Dynamite Bill

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2011, 10:07:54 PM »
i am wit Texas Jack, i like the way it is now. besides, anyone that shook the hand of Paul Bear Bryant KNOWS THANGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!         
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Offline J.D. Goodguy

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2011, 08:27:59 AM »
Bill, he ought to KNOW THANGS, for sure.  I spent an afternoon with the Bear and his Labrador Retriever when we lived in Alabama back in the 70's.  We have something for everyone as it stands now.  Clubs can experiment all they want to encourage new shooters at their monthly shoots withour changing the structure in place.  Hope youall have a MERRY CHRISTMAS.    JD

Offline Pancho Peacemaker

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2011, 09:06:44 AM »
  Saying you have so many seconds to shoot this stage - that is a problem. Do you set the average time to what I shoot it in or one of the Top Sass Shooters? Big difference in 60 sec. and 15 sec. 


In a "time limited" match, you might use 4 classes:

Youth:  50 seconds per stage
"Shootist" (open class):  20 seconds per stage
"Sharpshooter"  (handicap open class):  40 seconds per stage
Senior:  50 seconds per stage

Split between male and female and you have 8 simple classes.

Again, scoring in this enviroment would be most "hits" in the allotted time.  Shooter can use any legal NCOWS main match weapon in any safe combination.  i.e:  Shooter could use one pistol and reload as needed or shooter could use the traditional 4 gun CAS kit, or any combination there in.
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Offline Tjackstephens

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2011, 10:16:37 AM »
I tell you all one thing. I am glad that all this must be voted on. If some of these ideals come about I would never shoot another NCOWS match. Now tell me, how would that gain more members? Sure glad that this is only talking about ideals and everyone has the right to express. Tj
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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2011, 10:31:30 AM »
I tell you all one thing. I am glad that all this must be voted on. If some of these ideals come about I would never shoot another NCOWS match. Now tell me, how would that gain more members? ...

Hi TJ

I understand your pain.  The way to get more shooters is to make it EASY and Less EXPENSIVE to join up.  A coach gun and a single revolver is a lot more likely than two revolvers, a lever action, AND a shotgun (SASS).  A borrowing shotgun and a personal revolver is even more likely.  If I like it, I can eventually buy my way to a full SASS rig with a goat cart full of stuff, if I don't I only have one or two extra guns to clean or sell.

After all, there IS a reason we have IDPA, IPSC, and NRA Action Pistol as well as NRA Conventional Pistol, NRA International Pistol, and I'm sure that there are others. 

Later

Offline Yuma Kid

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Re: To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2011, 12:32:41 PM »
All,
I intend to make a motion to restruction the current 60-some number of classes down to 14.  All may be shot with your choice of powder or shooting style.   I will also stipulate that local clubs can sub-divide these as they like.  By age, powder type and shooting style.
Yuma

Men's   4-gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's   3-Gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Men's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Men's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Men's   Pistoleer   2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Men's   Original   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's   4-gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's   3-Gun   2 revolvers, 1 rifle
Women's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Women's   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 shotgun
Women's   Pistoleer   2 cap n Ball revolvers, 1 rifle, 1 shotgun
Women's   Original   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Boy's 12-17)   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
Girl's (12-17)   2-Gun   1 revolver, 1 rifle
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