To restructure or not to restructure - that IS the question

[Cash Creek]

I not so sure we are attracting the young group..the last ones to join the club I belong to were it the 45 to 55 age group..I started two years ago and I'm over 65, most of the 25 to 40 age are toooo busy raising kids and don't have the $$$ for our sport..

Just my 2 cents..CC

[Tascosa Joe]

My son is 38.  He shoots with the SST when he is not deployed.  We have several somewhat regular Jr Shooters at our club.  One is turning 16, 3 are 13, and we have 2 below 10.  These kids are the future, I am refering to.  All are either children or grandchildren of regular shooters, but that is how my 38 yr old got addicted to CAS.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

I not so sure we are attracting the young group..the last ones to join the club I belong to were it the 45 to 55 age group..I started two years ago and I'm over 65, most of the 25 to 40 age are toooo busy raising kids and don't have the $$$ for our sport..

Just my 2 cents..CC

That's the ideology that will hurt us.  If we see more kids, teens, and 20 year-olds on the range, then like minded folks will join us.  NCOWS has become a great experience for my son and I.   I'd much rather have Trevor out on the range shooting $2 worth of ammo at a 3 hour match, than see him sitting at home playing a $60 video game for 3 hours.   I am happy that I am a member of an organzation that fosters kids his age to shoot.

Discretionary dollars for hobbies are all relative.  I know folks who spend 10 times what we do on motorcycle hobbies.  I also know IDPA shooters who have tricked-out auto pistols that cost 4 times what a new Uberti revolver does.  It's all relative and more importantly how you present the sport's start up costs to interested parties really helps retain folks interest.  Everyone's income levels are different, but we all get to decide how and when to spend our "hobby dollars."

I do believe that folks in the firearm community view CAS/WAS as an "expensive" past time due to 1) "Four guns" 2) "Costumes" and 3) "Expensive antique ammo".  Those are opinions I've heard numerous times when we talk to the shooting public at gun shows and such.  When talking with folks, those three issues need to be addressed.

We as a group, need to stress avenues into the sport that minimize expense like working cowboy and purchasing used firearms through the local WAS community.  Also, I stress to folks that they can always try out the sport with borrowed guns.  Folks that enjoy the experience, quickly find a way to shunt some income toward gettting the necessary gear.

As with any organization or institution, if we are not growing then we are dying.

[Yuma Kid]

Texas Jack,
If the hosting club of the Nationals and Regional shoots want to sub-divide the 14 classes, that would be up to them.  I'll even revise my motion to make sure that is clear.  My point in making my motion to remove the requirement for clubs to offer over 60 classes and yet make sure when a person goes to a local shoot they know there will be at least a class for the guns you brought.
Yuma

[Tjackstephens]

Of course, I do not want to do away with the younger folks getting into our sport. My only thought just because us older folks are leaving this world or unable to shoot anymore, if you lump all into certain groups by the weapons you use, then it should be everyone. In the old west age would not have mattered, that seem to be what you are saying by doing this.
As I read these post over and over it seems to be that we have forgotten that this is just a shooting sport. We do want to be as correct in our dress, weapons, and ideals as we can. But it seems to be getting a little out of hand. Are you all sure we really need to change anything? Tj  

[Tjackstephens]

Pancho, That's not ideology, he's just making a statement on what he sees at his club, which is a large one. No one is saying that they do not want younger people. It's just a fact that we are not getting a large amount. With us having a working cowboy class already in place, don't see how these changes are going to make much of a difference. Guess we will have to wait till a vote comes up and if a change takes place, then see what happens. Tj

[Bow View Haymaker]

I don't have a dog in this fight but have been watching. 

Has anyone looked at the GAF classes? 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17271.0.html

I know it wouldn't be a perfect fit but it could be start.  Combine the milspec and civilian classes and you might be close.  several 2 gunclasses (single shot rifle and1 handgun, repeating rifle caliber and 1 handgun, repeating pistol caliber and 1 handgun, or shotgun and 1 handgun) or the handgung only or rifle only classes. 
Ihaveseenthe GAF classes work at our musters.  Reloads are the norm.  Must hit knockdowns are common. 
Many shooters enjoy the more realistic approach. 

Just my view from hear.

[1961MJS]

...

Discretionary dollars for hobbies are all relative.  I know folks who spend 10 times what we do on motorcycle hobbies.  I also know IDPA shooters who have tricked-out auto pistols that cost 4 times what a new Uberti revolver does.  It's all relative and more importantly how you present the sport's start up costs to interested parties really helps retain folks interest.  Everyone's income levels are different, but we all get to decide how and when to spend our "hobby dollars."

I do believe that folks in the firearm community view CAS/WAS as an "expensive" past time due to 1) "Four guns" 2) "Costumes" and 3) "Expensive antique ammo".  Those are opinions I've heard numerous times when we talk to the shooting public at gun shows and such.  When talking with folks, those three issues need to be addressed.

We as a group, need to stress avenues into the sport that minimize expense like working cowboy and purchasing used firearms through the local WAS community.  Also, I stress to folks that they can always try out the sport with borrowed guns.  Folks that enjoy the experience, quickly find a way to shunt some income toward getting the necessary gear.

As with any organization or institution, if we are not growing then we are dying.

Hiya Pancho

I agree with your post, but my reasoning for supporting restructuring is a little different.  The $ spent on a hobby we're done for a while are easy to justify, at least in OUR minds.  Any $ spent on a NEW hobby that we THINK we'd like to TRY aren't as easy to justify.  Borrowing guns is a nice opportunity, but one that doesn't answer all of the problems. Many of us don't feel comfortable  borrowing a gun for a match.  Ammunition isn't cheap (even in a borrowed gun), the ammunition for that borrowed gun is probably reloaded (not by "me"), and not everyone likes to have store-bought ammunition shot in their gun. 

Other shooting sports allow easier entry to the sport by having different classes and allowing only portions of the entire match to be shot.  You're allowed to shoot only the 12 gauge portion of a skeet match (12, 20, 28, and .410).  You can shoot NRA Action Pistol with your concealed carry gun.  You can shoot only the .22LR portion of an NRA Conventional Pistol Match.  If NCOWS can find an "entry" class, that can be shot with a gun that is either already owned by many Americans (not exactly likely), or is relatively inexpensive (Colt SAA knockoff's are roughly $500, which is just over the average price in my local gun shop), that would HELP spread the sport.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[Cole Bluesteele]

Mike,

How about a "Greenhorn" class to do what your suggesting?  Shoot what you brung as long as it is NCOWS legal.  No awards, just grins.

Ted

[Major 2]

Cole at a local level that might be fine ...
I would not expect a Greenhorn attending a Reg. or the Nat'l with the plan to compete.
So if have the entry level "Greenhorn" it would not need be a class or even timed.
Just a shoot what you got (NCOWS legal) and enjoy, maybe get hooked and go the whole nut.

I proposed Sodbuster ( not my coined name but it works) as a entry level class.
The Idea was one just might have a old double , or Colt or Remington replica or both.
Here is a class, he could compete in..

Or if he were to buy in ..a NIB Century SXS is roughly $300 and currently a Remy NM Army is $179
So @ $479. cost for those guns, at about the cost of one new SAA Replica Cartridge Revolver...
  ..he has class to compete in .

Sure the class is open to all comers with NCOWS legal shotguns & Revolvers.
Only reloads would be the Shotgun to even the field with cartridge arms...

We have Working Cowboy and it is very popular . Sodbuster has been well received and I think it would be a benefit
to NCOWS

[Cole Bluesteele]

Major,

Granted Greenhorn would not be a regional or national level class.

Ted

[Cliff Fendley]

I also agree a greenhorn is not likely to show up to shoot at the Nationals so why does NCOWS as a whole have to make an entry level class mandatory?

Local posses can offer that if they feel it will bring in new shooters. It may not be the same for all, some parts of the country people are more likely to own different guns. Let the local posses structure any additional "entry level class" to suit their needs.

Working Cowboy is already entry level as far as I'm concerned. I used to truck pull so believe me this is a cheap sport. Maybe a sodbuster class would be fine for some posse but there hasn't been any interest when it was brought up at our meetings.

[1961MJS]

Hi

In my uneducated opinion, sobbuster would be a good class to have even if as something beyond an entry class.  A shotgun and a six-gun would be a decent cowboy combination from the three or four books on the subject I've read.  In many ways, a shotgun would be an easier gun to borrow in a lot of respects too.  12 gauge trap loads are pretty inexpensive and would be competitive with the other rounds that NCOWS would usually shoot.  I know that borrowing a Remington 870 is not as big a deal as borrowing a Browning over and under.  I haven't had a side by side in my hands for a while, are they idiot proof enough for the average newbie?

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[St. George]

There really doesn't need to be an entry-level class - not when 'Working Cowboy' uses the most basic of weaponry and such.

Weapons and leather-wise, it's the most affordable - and with little work, pretty much anyone who wants to put in the effort can look appropriate to the era.

Anything beyond that is dependant upon the individual's personal interest, and we can always offer guidance in how to find and modify clothing to fit the Impression.

As to pulling in young shooters - probably won't happen, unless they're already historically-minded.

The folks who actively shoot C&WAS are those who remember the romance of the TV Westerns and the oaters of the '50's and '60's - and those really don't have hollywood's support - though folks do say they like them.

I suspect more are viewed via 'Netflix' than on the Silver Screen.

Kids today dream differently and Gene and Roy aren't even close to their screen.

Posse-level shoots can do what they like - National-level shoots are (and should be) different - there should be an expected standard that isn't as important locally.

To reiterate:

If we're not careful, we'll be known as:

 'NCOWS - A Class Outfit, Where Everyone Has Their Own Class'...

So long as we continue to play to our strength of greater fidelity towards the 'real' Old West, and not the 'reel' or 'IPSC With Hats', or the 'SASS-Lite' versions, we'll attract like-minded folks, and those will fill our ranks.

Ride for the Brand!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[bowiemaker]

I am seeing a renewed interest in the Old West thanks to current movies like "Cowboys and Aliens" and shows like "Hell on Wheels". If programs like those prove successful, there will be more and we could see a whole new generation of people getting interested.

While Western Action Shooting might be cheap compared to some hobbies and sports, it still is not cheap. Even with Working Cowboy one would need to invest $1000 in firemarms plus clothes, leather, and ammo. Especially among the younger crowd, that is a considerable investment in a tough economy.

I would like to see something less expensive that would attract young people to come out and give it a try. Once they try it, I think they will be hooked and then find it easier to justify spending more for more firearms just to get to shoot more.

[Ima Sure Shot]

We already have place for the Greenhorn.  New shooters have up to a year to get their stuff together, unless it is a Regional or National Shoot. Celeste

[Major 2]

Let me clearify , my stand on entry level ....

someone said WC is entry level .... lets look at that.

1  rifle ( least costly as of now,  is the Brazltec Rossi 92 @ about $450 retail )
and say a cartridge revolver @ $350  minimum    ( or if you will used in the $300 range )  so your @ $800 ... forget tax & FFL fees

Now you need to feed those two cartridge arms .... assuming an entry level does not reload (yet)
he'll have to buy factory or reloaded ammo...  factory 45 is running $ 39.50-49.50 in my area , 38spcl. being in the $ 32 range per box of 50 .
now he needs approx. 15 rounds per stage X say 6 stages =  90 rounds per venture or 2 boxes ....
So the fodder for WC is daunting ...

Now lets say there is a Sodbuster ( In lean towared the name "Pioneer" BTW)  Class

1 pistol and one shotgun ...I already shown the cost of start up here ... but just to be fair lets say the same cost for WC pistol above...
here is were this class could shine as stand alone class...

A box of factory loaded 12 guage skeet shells is $ 6.00 - $12 tops  1/3 the cost of rifle ammo. and box of factory loaded 45's could last over two events if used for the pistol only  ...

This could be the factor that allows , a person to get started...there could be a natural evoloution to 3 gun as the person wishes or he might
just , find his nitch as a Pioneer shooting his 1 pistol & 1 shotgun and attending a Regional ....

More than likely , a shotgun of sometype was behind the kitchen door... and surplus CW C&B or conversion was handy as well.

Remember, it's not always the first cost ....

I support , the 1 shotgun, 1 pistol  as National class ( Sodbuster, Pioneer what ever we choose to call it )

an while I at it, I would also support,  1 pistol,  1 rifle & 1 shotgun class.

Making NCOWS , a  2 , 3, or 4 gun , your option , unique organization 

[Cliff Fendley]

Even thought I wouldn't ever shoot it I first thought sodbuster was a good idea. Our posse was asked by our representative and no one showed interest in regularly shooting the sodbuster class.

If it works for a local posse then they can add it but I'm wondering if it's a good idea to add classes that arent going to be well excepted across the board.

Personally I can't see anyone going to the National or Regional shoots and just shooting sodbuster. If they want to shoot their shotgun without a rifle they will have the trap side match.

The new classes that were asked for from our posse were two pistols and a rifle and a pistol only class. Two, three, and four pistols were discussed but as far as I know we didn't come with a final decision on that.

There were also members that asked for a senior WC class.

You also can't always go by the polls on this board since very few members are on here. Reps need to listen to their posse and make the decisions from there. Don't you wish the US government worked that way?

[Major 2]

I view Senior & Elder as  an * Asterisk  to a class rather than a class onto itself..

what I mean is , The Tally Book allows the Senior or Elder to shoot " any of the above Classes "

If only one Elder is present , he shoots the same class he chooses and has the * Asterisk

I shoot WC, I could also shoot Senior anything ...I see no need hold a class distinction

if a Senior or Elder group, say 3 entrys , wishes  then WC (or anything NCOWS class) can stand alone as their division.

We may have 3-4 at CCC...1 pistol 1 shotgun  entries... We offer the class , two of these shooters travel with me to S. Carolina
when we shot with Saluda Saddle Tramps...they allowed the class...

[Tjackstephens]

I am going to make one more post and then keep quite. If age means nothing and you have entry level classes, then why would you have a boys and girl class (12-17)? Yes I know that Seniors and Elders have more know how and the boys and girls are just learning. Age does play a big part in what your are able to do. If you think not then watch me shoot on a stage that has a lot of movement and watch a 30 year old. Think we are forgetting that this is a sport that we compete in. If not why do we have first, second, and third in our classes?
On the shotgun and handgun class, we have offered Town Tamer, Lawman, or whatever you want to call it for the last two years. We have had one person shoot it once. The folks that shoot working cowboy and Range Det.(two handguns and a rifle) just don't like the shotgun. 
If we really think that a sod buster, Town Tamer would bring more members, then let us offer it and Range Det. on a trial. Say over the next two years and see if it works. But not do away with Elders, Seniors, or boys and girls. Yes with mens and womens that would be four more classes. At the National and Regionals what does those metals or slips of paper cost? Tj

[Ima Sure Shot]

This is the way I understand our current system. A person who is over 60 yrs. may shoot any of the classes, except the 17ys. and under.  However, If they so choose they may register in the Senior Class, and only compete against persons that are at least as old as themselves.  In the Senior class they may use one hand, two hands, black powder, modern, and/or any combination. It is a four/three gun class depending on the posse. Our posse shoots, one rifle, one handgun, one shotgun.  Working cowboy does not split out by age, black powder, one, two hand. There was some confusion about this at one National shoot. Thus the request at our club meeting for a class called Senior Working Cowboy. Over 60yrs. and only two guns. Less ammo and guns to carry, eaiser on older folks.  Not only do we move slower, but most of us have arms that are too short and even with glasses we cannot see our front sight as clearly as we once could.  Can't see the gnat let alone the hair.
                                                                                                                                                                                     
 Texas Jack, the medals given at the National Shoot cost NCOWS , I believe around three dollars each. In the past there have been several classes that only had one or two persons registered at the National or Regional.  Those persons got a first place medal, or second place if there were only two.  Therefore there are many more gold medals given out for first (only one person in a class) and second (silver  two persons in a class) than bronze third place medals. Medals were ordered by NCOWS Executive Committe in a large Batch to cut down on the cost. Thus they have no name of the event, class nor date.  There is a set up fee for striking them. They are given out at the National Shoot, and if a club wants to purchase them for a club shoot they may do so.  I never saw a cost for clubs ordering them.  Certificate paper is much less than that. Thus the reasoning to give out certificates at our shoots.Celeste

[Irish Dave]

Just a correction:

Senior and Elder classes, according to the Bylaws, indicate that the shooter "may use any of the above shooting styles"

It doesn't say "classes."  Senior and Elder age-based classes are conducted by themselves and are currently 4-gun classes. Within the those classes, a shooter can use BP or smokeless, one-hand or two. That's what the Bylaws means by shooting styles.

For the time being, at least, Senior and Elder are 4-gun classes. There seems to be some good rationale, IMHO, for looking at those classes and determining whether or not they should remain 4-gun classes.

[Cash Creek]

Just my two cents worth, I think maybe we need a two handguns one rifle class just because some of the Senior and Elder are getting older and don't want to shoot a shotgun..and face it we just don't move like we use too..CC

[Major 2]

TJ ..I did mean to imply  "age means nothing me"

The reason for Youth class , I believe is the Caliber & Parent or Gardian partisapation

My point was an Elder or Senior may shoot any class (per the Tally Book)

what I tring to say is  Working Cowboy as an example:

1 class for all WC shooters...then within the WC class sub divide  for * Elder ** Senior and + Ladies.

there is one list of entrants in WC  ...

Working Cowboy  
1.  Name  ..... etc.... total time  
 2.  Name  .... etc ...total time        
                          
3 ** Name ..etc...total time             (Here is the **Elder)    
                         He knows he was 1st. best ** Elder and knows how he finished , compaired to younger shooters  , rather than in classed by himself.                  
  4.  Name ...etc....total Time
   5.  + Ladies Name ...etc ...total time   ( may be the only lady entrant, but she knows she bested all comers  6- however many ? )

I don't want to exclude senior or elders...(heck I'm one )

I rather not be in class all by my lonesome ( if I'm the only Elder or senior shooting that day )




 
      

[Ima Sure Shot]

All -I owe an apology  to the Elders. Seniors may not register in the Elders class.  One must admit to being 70 to do that....However, as I read the by-laws an Elder may register in the Senior Class.

Also if it is an NCOWS sanctioned shoot, one must offer all the classes. Not," and a ladies class". There is a Women's Elder, Women's Senior,Working Cowgirl, Women's Smokeless Shootist, Women's Smokeless Duelist, Women's Blackpowder Shootist, Women's Blackpowder Duelist, Women's Pistoleer, and if there three of them Women's Originals.

Dave, there are only 2 classes that have the number of guns specified in the by-laws, they are: Working Cowboy and the Originals. As specified in the By-Laws one pistol/ revolver, one rifle. That is 2 guns.  Several Classes have been over the years shot with 4 guns but that is not what the bylaws say, and some clubs- I was told- only use one revolver  in some classes that most think of as 4 gun. Style of shooting is different than class of shooting.However Style of shooting in some cases Determines Class when one registers to shoot. For example,"Do you shoot one handed or two? (Style) Do you shoot Blackpowder or Smokeless?"Celeste