Author Topic: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge  (Read 20191 times)

Offline Itchy Triggerfinger

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Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« on: October 05, 2011, 08:58:50 AM »
I am considering buying a Kirst Converter for my 1858 Remmie.  I would like to get tips on how to load round ball in the 45 Long Colt Cartridge.

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Offline sail32

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 10:57:22 AM »
A friend uses patched round balls in his reduced .45-70 loads. The cartridge case is muzzle loaded so the patched ball sits on the powder. 25 yard accuracy was acceptable.

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 11:02:55 AM »
I have loaded RB over blackpowder, but in shorter cases, like the 11.6mm German reichsrevolver cartridge, aka .44 Russian.  There is no magic, but remember a few essentials;

1.  Rules require that the projectile must be visible in front of the case.

2.  It is commonly recommended that there be no airspace in the load.

A possible solution is to use a filler between powder & ball.  I have used Cream of Wheat without problems. but wisdom calls for caution.  Other options are caulk backing rod or floral foam.  Elmer Keith used a .451 roundball in .45-70 pushed down on 40 grains of powder.  This concept is not an option for us as it violates the first rule.  When I have ocassion to try an RB in a short case, I seat it far enough ahead to show above the case mouth but down far enough to leave a groove between case & ball. Into this groove I apply some BP lube with my finger.

The ultimate solution for the problem you imply is to go to the .45Cowboy Special case with your roundball, or the EPP-UGG bulllet (or the new .45 Snakebite) available as a mould from Dastardly Dick, or as cast by Springfield Slim or other custom casters.
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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #3 on: Today at 10:11:47 AM »

Offline rickk

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 11:27:51 AM »
Expect a significant point of impact change... quite a bit lower... unless you drop the charge way down.

Of course, if you do that, you will have even more of an airspace problem to deal with.


Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 11:31:21 AM »
Expect a significant point of impact change... quite a bit lower... unless you drop the charge way down.

Of course, if you do that, you will have even more of an airspace problem to deal with.



I think that, if the revolver in its cap'nball mode were sighted in to POA, that converting it to  the .45 Colt cartridge with 200-250+ grain bullets would shoot high.  Reverting to RB or EPP-UGG would bring it back down to POA.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
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Offline rickk

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 11:56:24 AM »
You are right Sir Charles... I forgot that this was already a RB shooter.

Offline cpt dan blodgett

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 04:21:40 PM »
Recently loaded 457 Round ball in 45/70 case.

1.9 CC FFg, 2.3 CC Walnut media, 1 Dr Pepper Case wad. 3/16 grease cookie 1 dr pepper wad 1 RB.

Dumped in the powder from a lee powder dipper
Dumped in Walnut from a lee powder dipper
Added 1st Wad
Expanded case with normal expansion die and just enough depth to bell slightly
Added lube cookie and second wad
Placed ball on top then carefully bumped with expander plug (ball not long enough to use seating die.   Could make a dowel plug I guess but, used what I had on hand).
Got to be really careful or you seat the ball to deep.
I wanted the largest part of the ball barely past the case mouth. 
Then I crimped. 
Shot about 6 - 8 inches at 50 yards from my Rolling Block and Armi Sports Taylors Sharps.

Think it will make a great plainsman round.

for 45 colt you might not need the filler and may be able to use less powder, would still want to use both wads and a grease cookie.  Do not need one as thick as I used and a wonder wad would work as well

Just had a blinding flash of the obvious.  I could possibly use my Powder Inc Cylinder loaded to press the ball in case.
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Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 07:13:50 PM »
As an experiment, the proof will be in the pudding!   It sounds reasonable to me, if it shoots well enough for you.  I'd expect some improvement as you gain a bit of experience.  Before you go into a match, check whether they require the ball be visible in front of the case. I understand that it must PROTRUDE beyond the case mouth enough to be visible from the side.

Other than for small game potting, what is this round intended to do?  I'd expect that you will get razzed a bit, even at a side-match.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline petrinal

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 08:43:38 AM »
we do it here all the time, in SPAIN, for 45 colt specially in UBERTI revolvers.

it is easy, just 23 grains of 3F powder, or even better, more accurate, 23 grains of 4F, BLACK POWDER ( not pyrodex i mean)  a filler like "semola de arroz" , which works the best, (it is triturated rice, sold comercially here) and a ball of 454 or 457".


the ball must be hold  right in the middle, or a bit lower,  by the case mouth, with a normal crimp.

accuracy, for the type of  rifling of  UBERTI revolvers, is great...i get around 2" or less atg 25 meters (not yards). The filler is important, if you leave air between powder and ball, it detonates and the recoil is a lot bigger, and the guns suffers, never leave air between ball an charge using BP.

NEVER, NEVER, use a PATCHED BALL like they do  muzzleloading,   for loading  metallic cartridges.... it is extremly dangerous..

why using a ball for 45 colt? the main reason here is accuracy. Here we dont do CAS yet, but shoot olympic type matches at 25 metres, one hand, in a discipline call PIÑAL, which is specially created for antique BP cartridge revolvers.

Uberti revolvers are famous  here for being not very  acuratte for  BULLS EYE, specially with normal 250/255 grain bullets...the type of rifling of these italian revolvers is inadequate for lead (even hard lead) and black powder, and they lead easily...

however, this rifling works great with ball, no leading,  and  accuracy  is great at 25 meters. Recoil is pleasant, so there are many good reasons for ball.

all the best

Cesar Garcia

Offline Sir Charles deMouton-Black

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 08:53:32 AM »
Good to hear from you Petrinel;  That sounds like a good enough reason for loading roundball.  I'm glad to see that you are enjoying shooting sports of any sort.  Perhaps interest in cowboy action shooting will lead to the creation of some competitions.
NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

Offline petrinal

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 07:35:50 AM »
Good to hear from you Petrinel;  That sounds like a good enough reason for loading roundball.  I'm glad to see that you are enjoying shooting sports of any sort.  Perhaps interest in cowboy action shooting will lead to the creation of some competitions.


thanks, we will see CAS matches soon here, as the law is not restrictive for this type of firearms (now, legally,  "antiques" are originals  made before 1890 and modern replicas, a recent change)  so a lot of people is going to buy more replicas in the future with quite easy to get permits.

before the change in law, most  metallic cartridge far west replicas were legally regarded as GLOCKS, Brownings, etc...so were bougth only with target shooting licenses and required safe storage at home, etc...belonging to a club...etc..but now is no longer needed for CAS type firearms..and also european guns of that period.

thanks again

Offline PJ Hardtack

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 10:57:30 AM »
The current issue of 'Handloader' magazine has an article by editor Dave Scovill on shooting RB in the .38 Spl., .44 and .45 calibres with smokeless powder.

I've got a Kirst 5 shot .45 Colt conversion for one of my Remington .44 cap & ball guns. Never occurred to me to shoot RB from the .45 Colt cylinder with BP or smokeless when I already have the .44 cap & ball cylinder and two other Remingtons.

I can see the value of the application for 'gallery  loads' and pest control - low noise, no recoil.
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Offline sail32

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 11:32:36 AM »
Hi petrinal

With reference to your statement about not using patch round ball in a revolver, you did not give any further information.
What do you base your statement on ?

Offline petrinal

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 06:56:53 PM »
Hi petrinal

With reference to your statement about not using patch round ball in a revolver, you did not give any further information.
What do you base your statement on ?


it is dangerous and no one does it, it makes no sense..

a patch may stay trapped in the rifling and the results will be catastrophic..it is a risk.

if you want to shoot ball, just shoot ball of the right size.


Offline petrinal

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 07:30:16 PM »
The current issue of 'Handloader' magazine has an article by editor Dave Scovill on shooting RB in the .38 Spl., .44 and .45 calibres with smokeless powder.

I've got a Kirst 5 shot .45 Colt conversion for one of my Remington .44 cap & ball guns. Never occurred to me to shoot RB from the .45 Colt cylinder with BP or smokeless when I already have the .44 cap & ball cylinder and two other Remingtons.

I can see the value of the application for 'gallery  loads' and pest control - low noise, no recoil.

in fact the ball is innacurate with light loads, in general, and needs speed, and the load I give of around 23 grains of 3F or 4F is powerful with ball...around the power of a 38 special...230 m/s or a bit less  or even more....far more of 300 m/s..for a 140 grain ball,....it is not mild at all.   .

the thing is that if you are doing CAS, shooting ball makes no sense...but if you are competing in BULLSEYE in historical weapons matches, at 25 metres, you must get the best accuracy possible...as you may loose the match by just...one point.

a normal competition is 13 rounds, 25 metres, in an ISSF official target, one hand...in 30 minutes.. only BP rounds....they will count your best 10 shots, so maximum is 100 points....

to get a "10", your hit must be 50% in the 10 area ..and the same with 9, or 8 etc...

last spanish championship was won by a guy with an STEVENS type pistol, and got 95 points..in other words, a lot of 10´s..and very few 9´s...

what do i mean with all this BLA BLA BLA? i mean that the reason for ball maybe just one and very powerful:  ACCURACY, as it is extremly accurate in black powder revolvers if you need that, and it does not lead the gun.

in many revolvers only with balls you can get real top accuracy from BP.......in a 45 colt, for example, unless you are lucky and have a extraordinary revolver or got a wonderful load for bullet or a UBERTI with a good rifling.....which is almost impossible..these guns are made for shooting plates, not for bullseye.

as i said,, 20...23...25 grains of BP is quite powerful.

please check this link...


http://www.avancarga.com/8_articulos/cartucheria/44-40_wcf/44-40wcf_6.htm

sorry, it is in spanish but gives interesting pictures and loads for 44/40 and describes all the problems many shooters have found with accuracy in  some italian black powder revolvers when using bullets...and top accuracy was demanded. Not the same with modern COLTs, they have a deeper and much better rifling for bullets.

they still know how to make the best SAAs in HARTFORT...thats why they cost more..

this picture is not mine, but people are getting this type of accuracy in matches....




it was in a championship a few years ago...it is 100 points, ten 10´s..(remember, we take de 10 best hits out of 13) in Veterli... it shows the miracles of the humble "round ball"...this time in rifle....50 meters...standing!

this is what i call "accuracy"...not exactly  "gun writer style" acccuracy...like shooting at 10 yards two handed and getting a 2" group...i am talking about shooting one hand at 25 meters and getting 1" o 1,5"..1,75"...or you will place 20 th in a match if you dont get that from your gun.

dont discard, please, the " forgotten" and "humble" round ball in your revolvers or rifles...BP, of course... because it normally surpasses the bullet when wanting top of the top accuracy...

all the best

PD: please, focus your attention on the target, not on the pretty girl on the right...









Offline sail32

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 05:34:21 PM »
Hi petrinal,
I did not make my question clear.
What I should have asked was, do you have any examples of patched balls in revolvers causing problems, or is your warning guess work ?
I am on this forum for technical information as well as fun.
Thanks

Offline petrinal

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 06:06:16 PM »
Hi petrinal,
I did not make my question clear.
What I should have asked was, do you have any examples of patched balls in revolvers causing problems, or is your warning guess work ?
I am on this forum for technical information as well as fun.
Thanks


your question was  clear and my answer was clear too.

it is crazy, dangerous and you get nothing shooting patched balls in a revolver..

first of all, it is very possible, very very possible that the patch will separate from the ball in the barrel, or in the transition from chamber to barrel

the ball will go anywhere as it is undersized, but if the patch stays in the barrel, in the next shot you will blow your gun up.

i dont have any examples, as no one with common sense has tried such a dangerous practise ... and have never seen a serious shooter do that..... just  to get  nothing but possibles troubles in return....as a ball of the right size will do the job without the need of a patch, in a metallic cartridge, with total safety.

if someone wants to try...he is free to it...even if they tell me that it is safe, I wont do it...

all the best

Cesar

Offline Burt Blade

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Re: Loading round ball in a black powder 45 Long Colt Cartridge
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 08:15:00 PM »
I will second the "don't use patched balls in a revolver" warning.

When I bought my first flintlock rifle,  I attended a few blackpowder club events and shoots, under National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association rules. They taught me all about patched balls in rifles. When I brought out my replica Remington New Model Army and asked about patch balls in it, I received several warnings not to try it.

The patch can and will separate at the forcing cone. This can lock up the gun, which is annoying but not dangerous at a range. If it does not lock up the gun, you have a barrel obstruction. Not a good thing. These folks pretty much write the book on use of blackpowder guns for accuracy in competition, and they told me “don’t do it”.

If you look at the patch around a ball, you can see just how easily it can open up at the cylinder gap. Felt wads under a ball do not expand, so they zip right through. Lube certainly blows out of the gap on my revolvers.

Petrinal put it a little more … passionately, but his point is correct. Personally, I do not need to see the actual blown up gun or the name of he fellow now known as “Lefty” to accept the warning.



 

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