Rifles and Revolvers

[litl rooster]

I happen to have a full scale Mountain Howitzer that I could be talked in to parting with.
[It fits the Plainsman time period.  They were in the US arsenal form 1836-1890.]

Books

Are you the origonal Warthog?

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

   I have been thinking about our future, and it looks good! Wonder what everybody thinks about guns for shoots once we start getting together (postal or in person). Period correct rifle is a given but 1 pistol ?, 2 pistols ?, scattergun ? Most Plainsmen probably wouldn't have bothered with a scattergun. Distances on the Plains are too great. However, this time also includes wagon train emmigrants  and '49ers both of which could have carried shotguns. Carrying 2 pistols (or more) was a common practice with cap and ball revolvers but the more guns we require, the more we become like the other groups. Since we are NOT timing ourselves, it gives us more latitude when it comes to reloading.This levels the playing field between revolvers and single shot pistols. I like that. It becomes more realistic and historically accurate. This also allows a person to carry the firearms that he feels is appropriate for his personna and still be able to compete. Another bonus!
   Also, I realize that we are The American Plains---'MEN' Society. Does that mean that we are a 'men only' group or do we include any woman who wants what we want from the sport. Personally, I believe that we should include anyone regardless of sex to join as long as they are willing to strive for the levels of authenticity that the rest of us seek. In fact, our time period was the era when non-native women began arriving in the West in numbers. This would also allow family involvement, again keeping authenticity levels in mind.
   I am sure many of you feel the same way but if not let's discuss the pro's and con's of these issues. My only concern is that we remain dedicated to the concept of HISTORIC ACCURACY. We all want to have fun but we should not sacrifice authenticity ito do so. I don't want to sound like a Thread-counting  Nazi. I just believe that it is easier (and cheaper in the long run ) to do the research and do things right the first time. Too often I have seen the "it's close enough" and "if they had it they would have used it" mind set ruin a good thing. I don't want TAPS to fall into it.
   I don't want to offend anyone or seem 'elitist'. The farthest thing from my mind. I just figure if we are going to do this, we might as well do it right. Thanks fer listening.

"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"

BUFFALO BILL

Each time I started to answer this Bill, someone has knocked on the door or called, so I will try again.
The following is just my input and the view of our local group.  It is not intended as authoritarian just an opinion.

1. The American Plainsmen Society:  We think of this as descriptive of a time frame and too describe people that lived or traveled across the plains.  That would include Mountain men, Scouts, Dragoons, Homesteaders and pioneers just too name a few. It would include all genders and ages, so it would include the whole family.

2. Taking a note from the Barracks, the less the gun requirement the better for new people.  A person might only have a Revolver or perhaps a single shot rifle that fits the period. I feel the time period is more important than the number of required weapons.

3. Historical Accuracy:  As a person that is as interested in the historical research as the shooting, I think this is something that should be striven for.  It is not always possible for the individual to have every item of the exact time period or be totally historically accurate from day one. As a local group we set up two camps ... Accurate and not accurate.  In the accurate camp we use the 15 foot rule while encouraging people to work toward accuracy. We have a member that wears a shirt that would fit the 1780's and I have a couple shirts that are of the 1870's styles.  We figure these are better than modern western shirts with snaps.

Our group is new and the weapons owned by folks is very limited.  We hold our matches accordingly.
1. rifle match to include single shot percussion muzzle loaders, single shot paper cartridge and even a metallic cartridge if proven to fit the time frame.
2. Revolver or single shot percussion pistol
3. Wooden bows for archery
We also hold a combination match and folks borrow the use of a weapon they do not own.

Well I got this much in before the next knock on the door and hope it helps start the conversation.  It is not meant to be my thinking in total, just a jumping in place.

I have a felling this would have done well as its own thread but that thought only struck as I have finished typing.   

[Drydock]

Interesting.  I've got a 3rd model dragoon, might have to look for a Mississipi rifle to go with it.

[River City John]

Year, 1857. I have a .50 Austin & Halleck half stock percussion plains rifle, browned barrel and furniture, coupled with a custom buffalo horn powderhorn with adjustable spout. Sidearm a .36 cal. Whitney revolver.


RCJ

[buffalo bill]

TwoWalks, I was just looking for the beginnings of a concensus. I think you and I are pretty close to the same ideas.

    1. I agree that this group could easily include women and children. In fact, historically speaking, women are much more   
        authentic to this period than the Mountain Man era and there are 1,000s of women Buckskinners. I believe that we
        should absolutely include women in TAPS.

     2. I think that if we require a certain number and type of firearms we might as well join one of the existing shooting groups.
         I didn't mean to imply that we should all have the same types, I was only curious about the kind of shoots that people
         were thinking about. Pistol. Rifle. Pistol and Rifle. Etc.

     3. I don't expect anyone to be Historically Accurate right off the bat. I was only encouraging people to think before they
         acquire a bunch of stuff that they might someday regret getting. I am a member of the American Mountain Men. We
         are known for our high level of authenticity and yet even we give our prospective members a year to get their gear
         together. This is supposed to be fun. I don't believe that anyone ever becomes 100% Historically Accurate. If we did,
         some of the fun would go out of it.

      I have high hopes that someday we will be more than a forum group. I would like to get together and enjoy being TAPS
      together "on the ground." However, we should consider setting some guidelines for future members. Thats all.


 "SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"

 BUFFALO BILL

[Comanche Kid]

Just picked up an 1851 Colt Navy, .36 Cal this weekend. Looking at a .50 Cal Hawken..I Guess My Harrington-Wesson .45-70 may need to be put on the shelf for a while...Good to see discussion going on about accuracy...Look forward to getting this Rolling...May be moving to Missouri soon...will be closer to being a Plainsman for real...God Bless..

[Jake MacReedy]

I believe we should let everyone start out with just one firearm, flint or percussion, and set up matches accordingly.  If someone has two (or more!) that fit in our historical period, then that's great!  We can set up matches for rifles, smoothbores, pistols and revolvers...or a combination of the above, depending on who brings what to a match.

I sort of foresee that a pistol/rifle, revolver/rifle or smoothbore/pistol, smpoothbore/revolver combo match might happen.

Just my $0.02 worth, pards!

Jake

[buffalo bill]

I recall that one of the first things mentioned about this group was that we would not time our shoots. If the eimphasis is on
accuracy rather than speed, single shot pistols could easily compete against revolvers. One of the best parts of this group is that
everyone can carry and shoot the guns that they feel is appropriate to their personna. We are all here for fun. I see alot of other
groups get too caught up in rules and regulations. We are the incarnation of the free spirited men and women who left their homes East of the Mississippi and made their own way in the West. This group, like the West itself is big enough for all. I know that there will be growing pains but I believe that it will all be worth it in the end.

"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"

BUFFALO BILL

[Caleb Hobbs]

I'm glad to see so many who are interested in a historically accurate group. I think hanging on to that goal is going to be our most difficult challenge.

I also want to see this become more than a forum group. Right now I'm thinking at least one encampment somewhere in the West every year, and maybe smaller regional camps if enough people are interested. As far as women and kids, I absolutely support this. (By the way, we already have a woman in the group; I hope to see many more.)

As far as shooting matches, I've envisioned a number of different styles -- from steel targets to paper (doesn't have to be a NMLRA bullseye target, either; charcoal on butcher's paper would work just fine), to an assortment of gourds, chili peppers, pieces of cork, charcoal and whatever else we can scare up. Woods (or plains) walks and renegade attacks are a lot of fun if you've got the right terrain.

  Since we are NOT timing ourselves, it gives us more latitude when it comes to reloading.This levels the playing field between revolvers and single shot pistols. I like that. It becomes more realistic and historically accurate. This also allows a person to carry the firearms that he feels is appropriate for his personna and still be able to compete.

"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"
BUFFALO BILL

Couldn't have said this better, so I didn't try.

[Caleb Hobbs]

Drydock and River City John -- sounds good. Hope to be able to shoot with both of you someday.

[River City John]

Drydock and River City John -- sounds good. Hope to be able to shoot with both of you someday.

If our trails meet, it would be a pleasure.

(Appreciated your citing The Shootist's review of Where The Buffalo Roam on your website. It's always a treat to meet someone who "tries to get it right". One of the many reasons I enjoy NCOWS and GAF.)

RCJ

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

TwoWalks, I was just looking for the beginnings of a concensus. I think you and I are pretty close to the same ideas.

    1. I agree that this group could easily include women and children. In fact, historically speaking, women are much more    
        authentic to this period than the Mountain Man era and there are 1,000s of women Buckskinners. I believe that we
        should absolutely include women in TAPS.

     2. I think that if we require a certain number and type of firearms we might as well join one of the existing shooting groups.
         I didn't mean to imply that we should all have the same types, I was only curious about the kind of shoots that people
         were thinking about. Pistol. Rifle. Pistol and Rifle. Etc.

     3. I don't expect anyone to be Historically Accurate right off the bat. I was only encouraging people to think before they
         acquire a bunch of stuff that they might someday regret getting. I am a member of the American Mountain Men. We
         are known for our high level of authenticity and yet even we give our prospective members a year to get their gear
         together. This is supposed to be fun. I don't believe that anyone ever becomes 100% Historically Accurate. If we did,
         some of the fun would go out of it.

      I have high hopes that someday we will be more than a forum group. I would like to get together and enjoy being TAPS
      together "on the ground." However, we should consider setting some guidelines for future members. Thats all.


 "SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"

 BUFFALO BILL

Bill I think we are in total agreement actually.   including the later statement:

"I recall that one of the first things mentioned about this group was that we would not time our shoots. If the eimphasis is on
accuracy rather than speed, single shot pistols could easily compete against revolvers. One of the best parts of this group is that
everyone can carry and shoot the guns that they feel is appropriate to their personna. We are all here for fun. I see alot of other
groups get too caught up in rules and regulations. We are the incarnation of the free spirited men and women who left their homes East of the Mississippi and made their own way in the West. This group, like the West itself is big enough for all. I know that there will be growing pains but I believe that it will all be worth it in the end."

[buffalo bill]

TwoWalks, I kinda figured we were closer to agreeing then these Dog-gone computers let us know. Hard to hear a man's tone and meaning in a "post".  Sit down here by the fire and pass me that jug.

"SCOUTIN' for SHAGGIES"

BUFFALO BILL

[Caleb Hobbs]

River City John:

Thanks. I have a lot of respect for NCOWS, and what it represents. GAF, too, although I'm not as familiar with that organization.

Caleb

[Fingers McGee]

Diary of Edmund Pace Jarvis:

The year is 1854.  Life is still tough in the wilds of East Texas.  I moved my wife and twelve children from Kemper County Mississippi to Smith County, Texas in 1852.  The little settlement of Jarvis Switch that we established here is starting to flourish.  The Weatherby and Lanham families arrived shortly after we did.  Their hard work and friendship have been a godsend.  What started out as a small trading post opened by Mr. Weatherby, has blossomed into a full fledged general store in just two years.  More families are staying close and estblishing new farms instead of just passing through on their way further West.  Even with civilization advancing in this new land, I still find it necessary to carrry firearms when traveling.  Col. Colt's new belt pistol is not as cumbersome as the Army pistol I have become used to carrying since our arrival; and I also carry the little .31 caliber pocket model pistol with me as an insurance against suprise.  For longer trips, I carry my shotgun instead of the heavier Tryon rifle that came with me from Mississippi.  The shotgun would be more effective in the dense pine forests than the large bore rifle.

[Caleb Hobbs]

Sounds like a pretty good outfit, Fingers. Welcome to TAPS.

[Jake MacReedy]

New Project: Modified Pietta Paterson Revolver:

I'm going to pick up a Pietta Paterson when I get home and do some "modifying" on it.  First, I'm going to cut the barrel from 9" to 7 1/2" and reset the front sight.  Then I'm going to re-profile the bottom of the one-piece walnut grips to more closely resemble the ones on the originals.  Here are some photo-shopped pictures of what the "before" and "after" shots should look like:
Before:

After:

[Comanche Kid]

Jake,
       Neat project...Keep the thread updated. Waiting to see the finished product...

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Jake,
       Neat project...Keep the thread updated. Waiting to see the finished product...

Second this motion... great looking project.

[Jake MacReedy]

Will do, pards!  I hope to have it completed by the end of September.

[River Jordan]

I think a variety of guns should be allowed and I like the idea of a 2 gun match with flexible rules ( not really rules but agreed informal contests)

One of the things that I dislike now about SASS is the overly complex rule book. I didn't start out as rocket science---just a bunch of friends shooting old guns and not really keeping score.

In fact, I would recommend that there not be scoring or timing at gatherings. Only shooting exhibitions informally held as if between friends.

I have an example of what I am referring to: my son and I like old WW 2 guns and we will go to the range and have an 8on 8 match where we decide on the distance ( usually 100 yds) and see who can shoot the best 8 shot group.
We use 8 rounds only because of the Garand. You can use any rifle and there is no time involved --only accurate shooting and fun. I usually use the 03 and he usually uses the Garand. we only do this game once and then move on to other things. It is like a ritual or a fun thing that we look forward to and is competitive yet simple.

APS could have a similar informal type match. Basically a Postal match in person. 

[boilerplatejackson]

My favorite for the late 1850s would be the 1841 Harpers Ferry rifle, and a brace of 51 colt navies. I have a percussion Taylors sharps
but it would be 1859 at best. Thats when the slant breech sharps was dropped from production. Post 1860-69 would be the 1841 Miss, or 61 Springfield, or P1858 Enfield for myself as well. I also have an Invest Arms half stocked plains rifle (Cabelas Hawken) that is lots of fun to shoot slugs at 100 yards and beyond.


The St. Louis Hawken was king of the plains for sure, but there were many other riflesmiths making and selling plains rifles
along the Missouri river towns as well. From Arrow Rock to St. Joe, Missouri.

[boilerplatejackson]

I guess my persona would be that of a Townsman plying his trade. My trade would be a tailor in Lecompton, Kansas Territory.
When business from the Capital was slow I would have hired a wagon to go buff hunting west of Topeka. As a reserve member
of the Kansas Territorial Militia, I would have had access to the 1841 Harpers Ferry issued to us from Ft. Leavenworth as approved
by the US Government. On one occasion we did get called to arms to defend Lecompton fron Jim Lanes Free State Militia. When
Dragoons intervined, Lane and his forces dispersed.

[Tascosa Joe]

I was looking at the Dixie Cataloge.  They have what they call The Mortimer Rifle.  it is built by Pedersoli.  It is an earlier half stock octagon to round .54 cal flintlock.  I think it is a forerunner of the plains rifle.  It in many respects resembles a rifle at the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco that has provanance to Jim Bowie at the Alamo.  The rifle was on loan to the museum, it may not be on display anymore.  The last time I was in there was probably 1996.  The Bowie gun had a lot of brass inlay that is absent on the stock of the Italian gun.  I keep thinking this rifle converted to percussion would have a very high cool factor.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

They have what they call The Mortimer Rifle.  it is built by Pedersoli.  

I keep thinking this rifle converted to percussion would have a very high cool factor.

Tascosa here is your vision.  The Mortimer Whitworth, it is special order and only available in .45