Look MUM No safety!!

[Paladin UK]

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Look MUM No safety!!

Yessiree......... Had ta go, I am really pleased with the way its coming along...









Have already test fired with some reeel stout loads and Nooo probs whatsoever!!
Now iffn I can get those hammer springs sorted I`ll be a happy cowboy.   Papa Dave's cocking levers work fine, I need just a tad less resistance on the hammer springs `n that's why I need ta find  someone who will send me a set of Vaquaro factory springs!!


Paladin (What lurvs ta tinker  ) UK

[Bugscuffle]

Your club doesn't mind you doing that? I don't know all of the rules verbatim, but I remmeber in reading in the Wild Bunch rules about the 1911 and it said there that all the safeties had to be operational. Does that not apply to all guns and all safeties?

Just last night I replaced the hammer springs, sear spring, and the top snap spring in my Stevens 311 with the Wolf reduced power spring kit. To tell the truth the difference is more or less minimal. There is no more tendancy to close back up, but i don't really feel that it is a whole lot easier to open. But, getting back to the reason I replied to this. In replacing the topsnap spring, I bent the guide rod just a little and not paying attention, I reassembled it. It was then that I noticed that the safety did not automatically engage when I opened the action. It still worked just fine when I flipped it on and off, but it didn't go "on safety" automatically. I like it that I don't have to fumble with the safety every time I reload, but is it legal? I have since removed the stock an repaired the safety, but it would be nice if I could disable that auto safety feature permanently.

[wildman1]

Seems ta me it would be "operational" if it worked when ya used it manually. WM

[litl rooster]

the safety is when the gun is in the open position, remember the double barrell/shotguns are loaded on the clock. Unlike the loaded pistol or the rifle you hand carry to the line.


PUK is the spring your looking for?




reading your other post looks like fingers Mic helped ya out

[Paladin UK]

Ho LR.......... Yessiree thats the said spring!!

Fingers has very kindly sent me 2 Stock Vaquaro mainsprings!! ( Thanks again Pard ).  Now all I gotta do is find out iffn I stuff `em in as they are, or iffn I have ta give em a bit of a haircut. Papa Daves Levers work well but the gun aint opening quite fully, it really is just a `tad` and so I reckon Iffin I can install the Vaquaros ones I should be sorted!! If not I will have to try and find a pair of stock Baikel springs and spend a month or two shaving em 

Regarding completely removing the safety,  On the Sevens it was it was not a good idea, when I deliberately Slammed the gun hard shut I got a `Boooom` Could not make it happen at home with empty chambers, but at the range No problem at all, first time it happened it took me by surprise as I thought I had it sorted!! With the set up of the safety on the Stevens it needs the rest of the ironwork for it to function, so you can disable it but ya cant remove it, On the Baikel No such trouble, I have tried slamming the gun shut with a hell of a snap 5 or 6 times on the trot. I think its because the sears sit nice and flat and the iddy biddy sear spring must contribute to it behaving so well, you really have to physically lift the bar by pulling the trigger.

Paladin (What a reel happy cowboy ) UK

[Bugscuffle]

Pards, This is just my opinion, but.......

Wildman - The way I see it, it's "operational" when it works the way it was designed to work.

Litl Rooster - The safety is when you tug on the trigger and nothing happens irrespective of whether the action is open or closed. With the safety disabled what's to prevent the hammers from tripping while the action is open and then when you close the action the hammers are not cocked? Now that'll eat up some clock.

Paladin - If the safety is disabled or removed and If the sears are tripped while the action is open, nothing will happen because the cocking plunger ia still holding the cocking lever back which is holding the hammers back. But when you close the action the hammers travel forward and if you close it quickly enouugh they may hit the firing pins hard enough to fire the shell(s) in the chamber(s).

[wildman1]

Just checked the Sass rules could not find any reference to safeties at all let alone "automatic safeties". If it must work the way it is designed how do you justify changing the degree of force it takes to open or close it? Or to keep it from closing back up? WM

[Popa Kapoff]

May I segest putting the safety back and modifying the pin in the safety so it will not automatically reset. I did this on mine it took 10 minutes

[Fingers McGee]

Removing or disabling the safety is not a good idea - in fact, it could be construed by some as being foolish.  Disabling the automatic safety does not fall into that category.  Safety is still there, it just doesnt get applied automatically when the action s opened.  I disabled the autosafety on a Stevens 311 I had a long time ago as well as on a Baikal I had.  The manual safety was not affected.  Of course,  now days I only shoot hammered doubles, so an auto safety is not a factor.

FM

[Bugscuffle]

Removing or disabling the safety is not a good idea - in fact, it could be construed by some as being foolish.  Disabling the automatic safety does not fall into that category.  Safety is still there, it just doesnt get applied automatically when the action s opened.  I disabled the autosafety on a Stevens 311 I had a long time ago as well as on a Baikal I had.  The manual safety was not affected.  Of course,  now days I only shoot hammered doubles, so an auto safety is not a factor.

FM

And Popa too - I can't help but think that disabling the auto safety is not a good idea, and disabling the auto safety DOES fall into that catagory! I'll restate what i said before:
"If the safety is disabled or removed and If the sears are tripped while the action is open, nothing will happen because the cocking plunger ia still holding the cocking lever back which is holding the hammers back. But when you close the action the hammers travel forward and if you close it quickly enouugh they may hit the firing pins hard enough to fire the shell(s) in the chamber(s)."

[Bugscuffle]

I believe that it is the answer to you not opening up enough problem. The springset replacement will help with the trying to closeup again problem, but the answer to your not open up enough woes lies in the cocking plunger length. Be very careful in trimming that plunger. It's very, very close between letting it open up more and not being able to open it up at all. Actually you can if you just remove the forearm and it will open up and you can then remove the plunger and doctor it up a little. Ask me how I know this.

More or less step by step instructions are here:
http://marauder.homestead.com/Stevens311.html

[wildman1]

Read the rules, think about it. Many guns DO NOT have automatic safeties but they are still safe to shoot. If your safety still works manually, IT STILL WORKS. I still don't understand how you can justify changing springs etc to change the way the gun works and then say the gun  should be left to work the way "it was designed". WM

[Bugscuffle]

Read the rules, think about it. Many guns DO NOT have automatic safeties but they are still safe to shoot. If your safety still works manually, IT STILL WORKS. I still don't understand how you can justify changing springs etc to change the way the gun works and then say the gun  should be left to work the way "it was designed". WM

Changing the springs does not affect the safety at all. It only affects the amount of effort to open the action and reduces the tendancy for the action to close slightly after opening. Changing the length of the cocking plunger does not affect the safety. It affects the point that the plunger meets the cocking lever. Shortening it allows the action to open a little bit further. The auto safety is a function of the snap spring guide rod. When you move the lever to open the action the guide rod presses back against the safety and engages the safety. When the action closes the lever centers itself, the guide rod moves forward and the safety is then free so that it can be taken off manually by moving the slide forward.
If you read this, you will understand more fully:

http://marauder.homestead.com/Stevens311.html

[wildman1]

Do you think Marauder would advocate something against SASS rules? Do you think he would advocate something which is unsafe? If so then you need to tell him. Because that website gives instructions for "slicking" various firearms, including shotguns and how to fix safeties so they are not automatic. By the way I understand completely without going back to that website and rereading it. WM

[Bugscuffle]

Do you think Marauder would advocate something against SASS rules? Do you think he would advocate something which is unsafe? If so then you need to tell him. Because that website gives instructions for "slicking" various firearms, including shotguns and how to fix safeties so they are not automatic. By the way I understand completely without going back to that website and rereading it. WM

Wildman - Please don't take any of this personally. If I have offended you I deeply apologize. I don't know if Marauder would advocate anything contrary to SASS rules or that is unsafe. I cannot see inside his mind. I do know that people sometinmes do inadvertently advocate things that are unsafe or contrary to the rules. I do know for sure that disabling the auto safety makes my Stevens 311 less safe. That's why when I discovered that the auto safety wasn't working, I went back in and fixed it even though I would prefer it to not be there. Think about how this gun works, how on opening the cocking plunger pushes back the cocking lever which pushes back the hammers and the sears capture the hammers in the cocked position. At thjis point if one or both sears get tripped, not hard to do in the fury of motion involved in a speed reload, the hammers will not go forward as they are still held back by the cocking levers, but when the action is closed and the cocking lever goes forward and so will the hammer(s). If you slam the action shut you could get an accidental discharge and even if you it doesn't fire, the hammer(s) will not be cocked and the chamber will not fire.

[wildman1]

No offence taken. You may be right about the 311. BUT not all guns are the same. Some of the automatic safeties can be changed so they work manually and still be safe. The only thing I took exception to was your statement that the gun should operate the way it was designed to work and then you gave a description of how you changed the way it was working. To me that does not seem consistant.  WM

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy safety and non-safety fans,

For what it's worth, I had a 311 which had an auto safety. When the opening lever was pushed an internal rod moved back and pushed the safety "on" every time the action was opened.

I simply shortened (as in cut) the rod so it was no longer long enough to reach the internal safety levers that block the sears and prevent the triggers from lifting them. The safety slide on the tang still worked perfectly manually and would move the safety levers over the sears making the gun safe.

I consider that modified 311 perfectly safe, just like many skeet, trap and sporting clays guns. Now removing the internal safety levers is another story altogether. I have to say I'd be very uncomfortable with a non-hammer gun with no manual safety. (Sorry, Palladin.)

Reverend Chase 

[Bugscuffle]

It is entirely possible that the experience that Paladin had was exactly what I described. to wit:

"Regarding completely removing the safety,  On the Sevens it was it was not a good idea, when I deliberately Slammed the gun hard shut I got a `Boooom` Could not make it happen at home with empty chambers, but at the range No problem at all, first time it happened it took me by surprise as I thought I had it sorted!! With the set up of the safety on the Stevens it needs the rest of the ironwork for it to function, so you can disable it but ya cant remove it, On the Baikel No such trouble, I have tried slamming the gun shut with a hell of a snap 5 or 6 times on the trot. I think its because the sears sit nice and flat and the iddy biddy sear spring must contribute to it behaving so well, you really have to physically lift the bar by pulling the trigger."

The above is from Paladin's post not one of mine.

removing the safety leaves the possibility of an accidental discharge. It will all depend on whether or not the sear(s) is/are tripped when you close the action and how forcefully you close the action and cutting the guide spring guide rod will do the same thing too. As long as the sears are free to move and trip, the danger will be there.

[Paladin UK]

I have taken a little video today to show just how safe the Baikal is!!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggntup32HhU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggntup32HhU</a>

I cant see any problem here at all, many original scattergunz would not have remained cocked after that treatment!!

Paladin (What lurvs his Ruski scattergun  ) UK

[Qball]

Wow... it got a realy good spankin' there.


Had it been bad?

[Sod Buster]

Looks good PUK!
Ya did a right fine job there. 

[Paladin UK]

Fer Qball.....

You wanna see what it gets when is misses a steel!!

Paladin (Whats Totally happy with his scattergun  ) UK

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy PUK,

I'm surprised the a civilized country like yours allows such willful shotgun abuse. Or perhaps that's what happens to a shotgun under sharia law. Do you cut off the barrel of an offending shotgun?

Seriously, if I've read the earlier posts, the one test that you didn't show, which may be the most disconcerting is the one where the gun is vigourously (note the sp.) shut. I doubt that your gun would drop a hammer under those circumstances after what you showed us.

So if I understand this, your "safety" is haveing the gun open.

Reverend Chase

[Paladin UK]

Ho Reverend...

Yep I did a bunch of really snapping the gun closed and again it NEVER fired, its a whole lot more cushioned when in the stock!! This was before I decided it needed a thrashing


From the Shooters Handbook


SAFETY PRACTICES
FIRST, LAST, AND ALWAYS..

16. Shotguns are always staged open with magazine and chambers empty and are loaded on the
clock unless the stage begins with the shotgun in the shooter’s hands.......
  Mule eared shotguns can be cocked at the beginning of a scenario, whether staged or in the shooter’s hand   Mine`s  the same situation, hammers cocked gun empty.!!

Paladin (What lurvs his Scattergun    ) UK

 

[Jefro]

The auto safety is removed in about 99.9% of all the double guns you'll see in a SASS match, and perfectly legal. The manual safety is still there if you want to take it in the woods. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy