Uberti Cattleman with a problem

[Pettifogger]

Sorry, I wasn't aware of the difference between the factory Magtech CA stuff being smokeless and the factory Winchester CA being BP or a substitute. I discovered this actually shooting both types of rounds yesterday as the first time I shot the Winchesters was at the NCOWS event for JCR and that is also the first time I had it happen. Before then I has shot as I said part of a box of Blazer standard JHP and a box of the Magtech both of which where not a problem.

I don't own a feeler gauge so I really can't check it other than by eye. I have written out the problem for Uberti and will have the letter mailed along with the gun. I will say it is strange to me as the ASM has less gap (visibly) than the Uberti on both sides of the cylinder, but functions fine regardless of ammo used.

I think you have everyone 100% totally mystified at this point.  What is CA?  I have never seen any Magtech or Winchester ammo marked "CA".  Second, you keep saying Winchester factory CA is loaded with BP. NO factory Winchester ammo is loaded with BP or a sub.  What are you talking about?  If you were shooting BP you would know it by the BIG cloud of white smoke.  You absolutely cannot confuse shooting smokeless with shooting BP.  What are you shooting?  Uberti isn't going to fix a gun because it supposedly doesn't run on BP but works perfect with smokeless.  You need to go to a local shoot and talk to some people that know a little about guns and ammo.  This sounds like an operator issue, not a gun issue.

[Abilene]

joec,
You should know that it is very likely that if the gun shoots smokeless ammo fine, "the factory" is going to say it is within spec and send it back without doing anything.  It may not be money out of your pocket, but your shop will have wasted their shipping costs and time will have been wasted, and the gun will still be the same.  Lots of guns work fine with smokeless but need to be tweaked for BP.  Sometimes it is related to the type of lube being used, or related to the specifics of the ammo (what type and how much lube in the bullets if it is real BP and not a BP substitute, for example).

Might be worth your while to have it looked over by someone familiar with these issues before sending it off.  That's what the folks here are trying to do but it isn't easy without seeing the gun.  Good luck.

I see Pettifogger beat me to it, pretty much same info.

[joec]

CA is short for cowboy action loads. Now if Winchester doesn't use a pure BP which I doubt the use a substitute based on the smoke they put out. I might add it is also very dirty compared to the Magtech which makes little if any smoke.

Now let me try to be clearer with my limited knowledge of the Colt 1873 clones. First I bought two guns one used and one brand new. The ASM is used while the Uberti was brand new. I tried both guns using the same ammo Magtech and Blazer without a problem before going to an event putting close to a 100 rounds through both without a problem. I went to the first meet I've ever attended and couldn't find MagTech ammo so got enough Winchester in cowboy action loads for the meet. I then shot 3 heats with the Uberti having problem on the 3 heat at around 12 rounds through the gun. I then when to the ASM and shot 2 heats (10 rounds). I also shot the Rossi R92 through all 5 heats using the Winchester ammo without issue. As soon as I came home I cleaned all the guns. I went to the range Monday with 2 full boxes of Winchester ammo and had the problem with the Uberti fouling on the 11th or 12 round however the ASM fired a 100 rounds of the same stuff without problem and without the need to be cleaned. The Uberti required cleaning as soon as it fouled at about 11 rounds. Now if they are 1873 replicas I would expect them to handle a black powder or substitute powder such as pyrodex if not I would like to know why. I also stated I've not shot black powder or a substitute for it except in an old cap a ball pistol 40 years ago so I'm unfamiliar with the stuff.

Now as for knowing about guns single action is something new to me other than a Ruger Single Six I had as a kid. I've been around guns my whole life but modern double action revolvers and semi auto pistols as well as a few rifles. I no knowledge of gunsmiths nor ammo other than ballistics test for effectiveness. I've never reloaded ammo and have recently started to get interested in it. Oh and I've never shot guns for sport until now as I don't hunt.

So at this point I will thank those that offered suggestion and see what the out come will be Tuesday with Bud's. Meanwhile I will not ask any more question on this. So thanks.

[joec]

Oh and I have a gap between the barrel and cylinder that I can see light through on the ASM. No light showing between the two at all on the Uberti though no marks on the front of the cylinder and sheet of post it notes will not go into the gap while it will on the ASM. It looks like a clearance problem to me and that is what the gunsmith at Bud's also suggested it was when I discussed it with him Saturday. He suggested we send the gun to Uberti not me and then informed me they would pick up the cost as I bought the gun recently.

I just measure the paper with a micrometer and it measure .003" on the Uberti and didn't go through the gap.

[Fingers McGee]

Sounds like the revolver has a very tight barrel/cylinder gap that fouls out using Winchester ammo.  Cycling becoming harder with use indicates a fouling problem.

FM

Barrel/Cylinder gap - Didn't i mention that on post 5?

FM

[St. George]

"Now if they are 1873 replicas I would expect them to handle a black powder or substitute powder such as pyrodex if not I would like to know why."

Because they were specifically 'built' at the factory to shoot smokeless and 'not' blackpowder, and shooting anything but what the factory built them for will void any claims against a warranty...

Modern weapons are designed to be shot with modern factory ammunition.

Substituting blackpowder or reloads voids the warranty, because that ammunition was not what the factory specifies.

Folks shooting blackpowder often need to have their weapons slightly modified in order to handle the increased fouling - the 'gunsmith' at Bud's should know this - plus, their cleaning regimen includes a complete detail-stripping, due to the fact that blackpowder fouls differently from smokeless.

The weapon won't work right unless it's cleaned right - and if you don't want to learn how to do that, as you've stated - then you at least need to bathe the piece with something like 'Ballistol' to help the process.

There are numerous threads on that - but 'Ballistol' may become your friend.


Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[joec]

Actually according to one post that factory Winchester cowboy action loads do not use black powder or a substitute. So basically if true then it won't fire Winchester ammo and perhaps others as well. All I know is having to clean a gun after every 10 rounds makes it pretty much useless so I may simply replace it with a Ruger and be done with it. At this point I've pretty well made up my mind if it isn't something that can be fixed by returning the gun will go to the safe to die.

[Pettifogger]

Actually according to one post that factory Winchester cowboy action loads do not use black powder or a substitute. So basically if true then it won't fire Winchester ammo and perhaps others as well. All I know is having to clean a gun after every 10 rounds makes it pretty much useless so I may simply replace it with a Ruger and be done with it. At this point I've pretty well made up my mind if it isn't something that can be fixed by returning the gun will go to the safe to die.

Everyone has posted what to look for and you just keep posting melodramatic replies.  Lots of Rugers come from the factory with very tight cylinder/barrel gaps and do the same thing your gun is doing.  One of the first things I do when I get a revolver in is to check the cylinder gap.  Feeler gauges are two bucks at Walmart or Checker, go buy some.  I have had several Rugers recently that would not accept a .0015 gauge (one and one-half thousands of an inch) which is the thinnest feeler gauge in most sets.  Smokeless powders also produce fouling, some more than others as you have found out.  Quit being a drama queen and take the thing to a gunsmith.  Opening the cylinder gap is at most a five minute job and has to be done on lots of new guns.  "At this point I've pretty well made up my mind" that you are bound are determined not to take any advice so I'm not going to offer any more.

[joec]

Everyone has posted what to look for and you just keep posting melodramatic replies.  Lots of Rugers come from the factory with very tight cylinder/barrel gaps and do the same thing your gun is doing.  One of the first things I do when I get a revolver in is to check the cylinder gap.  Feeler gauges are two bucks at Walmart or Checker, go buy some.  I have had several Rugers recently that would not accept a .0015 gauge (one and one-half thousands of an inch) which is the thinnest feeler gauge in most sets.  Smokeless powders also produce fouling, some more than others as you have found out.  Quit being a drama queen and take the thing to a gunsmith.  Opening the cylinder gap is at most a five minute job and has to be done on lots of new guns.  "At this point I've pretty well made up my mind" that you are bound are determined not to take any advice so I'm not going to offer any more.

Ok Pettifogger I've figured out it is a fouling problem with factory ammo not home made black powder or substitutes. Thanks for educating me on the workings of a single action firearm. I didn't mean to come of as drama queen, I was simply asking what would cause this. I gather that the gun has very tight tolerances and I did take it to a gunsmith and he suggested sending it back not me. As I said I'm no gun smith nor have any real knowledge of tolerances in a gun as I've shot them for years with factory ammos. Sorry that you took offense.

[Abilene]

Howdy joec,
Okay, so since it is pretty much looking like the barrel to cylinder gap is the culprit, being too tight for even certain smokeless ammo, you really have two choices with the gun (I'm not counting putting the gun in the back of the safe as an opiton  )

If you have the gun sent back for warranty work, they PROBABLY will fix it, although it's hard to say.  They might shoot it and if it works okay they will say you have an ammo problem and return it (just FYI, Cimarron test fires problem guns with Black Hills ammo, and if that works they will usually say the gun is fine).  And if they do fix it, you still might be without the gun for anywhere from a couple weeks to several months.

The second option is to have somebody local open up the gap.  As Pettifogger said, this is an easy job, and would take less time than packing up the gun and doing the paperwork to return it.  Possibly your gunsmith is not familiar with single actions.  Or possibly he doesn't want to do something that he thinks might void your warranty. 

Good luck with the gun and let us know what happens.  Rugers are okay, but the Cattleman will be a better mate for your ASM.  Once you get it working good and have confidence in it, you will be glad you got it fixed.

[joec]

Howdy joec,
Okay, so since it is pretty much looking like the barrel to cylinder gap is the culprit, being too tight for even certain smokeless ammo, you really have two choices with the gun (I'm not counting putting the gun in the back of the safe as an opiton  )

If you have the gun sent back for warranty work, they PROBABLY will fix it, although it's hard to say.  They might shoot it and if it works okay they will say you have an ammo problem and return it (just FYI, Cimarron test fires problem guns with Black Hills ammo, and if that works they will usually say the gun is fine).  And if they do fix it, you still might be without the gun for anywhere from a couple weeks to several months.

The second option is to have somebody local open up the gap.  As Pettifogger said, this is an easy job, and would take less time than packing up the gun and doing the paperwork to return it.  Possibly your gunsmith is not familiar with single actions.  Or possibly he doesn't want to do something that he thinks might void your warranty. 

Good luck with the gun and let us know what happens.  Rugers are okay, but the Cattleman will be a better mate for your ASM.  Once you get it working good and have confidence in it, you will be glad you got it fixed.

Thanks Abilene. I guess my next question is what would be a gap that will fire both smokeless and black powder without the fouling problem or is the gun dependent? I would much prefer not to send the gun back at all either, as that was the guy at Bud's suggestion who is a gun smith when I asked him about fixing it. He did do the Steve's tune up on my Rossi with great results and repaired a different problem with my ASM. As for the feeler gauge I did find mine but nothing would fit between the cylinder and barrel that I have.

[Pettifogger]

A good compromise if you intend to shoot BP is .006.

[joec]

A good compromise if you intend to shoot BP is .006.

Thank you I will see if I can get it done. Now for my last question simply out of curiosity. How is this done by milling the cylinder, barrel and with what tools? In other words a milling machine, grinder, sand paper etc. I know the only thing that the guy that does my guns doesn't have is a milling machine as he sold it when he retired 10 years ago.

[Pettifogger]

Here are the tools.

The first photo is the tool by itself.  The second shows it installed in a gun.  All you do is pull on the handle and give it a twist or two.  That's all it takes.  If a person has a steady hand, you can do the job with a flat file laying across the back of the barrel.

[joec]

What is that tooled called?

[Pettifogger]

Actually its part of a set that has different cutters for different purposes.  I believe the cutter in that picture is called the 90 degree barrel facing tool.  It is just a flat cutter used for squaring and facing the back of the barrel.

[joec]

Thanks again and after seeing the price for the tool I called Gemini Customs in Frankfurt KY. He said he would make an appointment within the next month though he is backed up bad (1 year on 1911 work). At any rate he told me for just setting the gap if I know exactly what it needs to be, he could do it in a few minutes for $40. I think I will go that route and will go with the .006" gap that you I think suggested would be a good compromise. 

[joec]

One of my tenants is a Snap On tool dealer and had him sell me a feeler gauge today that goes to .001. My ASM is .006 and the Uberti wouldn't take the .001 gauge even. Hence the problem. Oh and these measurement where all done with the hammer back and pressing a bit on the cylinder. I'm not sure that is the proper way however it made the biggest gap regardless.

[joec]

Howdy joec,
Okay, so since it is pretty much looking like the barrel to cylinder gap is the culprit, being too tight for even certain smokeless ammo, you really have two choices with the gun (I'm not counting putting the gun in the back of the safe as an opiton  )

If you have the gun sent back for warranty work, they PROBABLY will fix it, although it's hard to say.  They might shoot it and if it works okay they will say you have an ammo problem and return it (just FYI, Cimarron test fires problem guns with Black Hills ammo, and if that works they will usually say the gun is fine).  And if they do fix it, you still might be without the gun for anywhere from a couple weeks to several months.

The second option is to have somebody local open up the gap.  As Pettifogger said, this is an easy job, and would take less time than packing up the gun and doing the paperwork to return it.  Possibly your gunsmith is not familiar with single actions.  Or possibly he doesn't want to do something that he thinks might void your warranty. 

Good luck with the gun and let us know what happens.  Rugers are okay, but the Cattleman will be a better mate for your ASM.  Once you get it working good and have confidence in it, you will be glad you got it fixed.

I talked to Stoeger who does the repairs for the Uberti that I bought, from Bud's Guns Shop. I explained my problem with the Winchester cowboy action ammo. They said they would test fire with the same ammo then if it did what I said they would repair it. Afterward I talked to Gemini Custom LLC which is only about 20 to 30 minutes from me and has done custom work on 1911 for me. At any rate they aren't taking any new work but the head gunsmith told me he can and will squeeze me in near the end of June or early July and set the cylinder barrel spacing to what ever I want for $40. I decided I will go with him since he did a super job on a Springfield Loaded 1911 last year for me. He will do it while I wait so it is walk in and walk out within 15 to 30 minutes. So at this point that is what I will do as I know it will be right the first time and done in a timely matter. I might add again that the ASM the .006" feeler gauge just did go and the Uberti would even start the .001 gauge. My old feeler gauge was like most only had .0015 while the one I bought tonight from Snap On goes to .001.

[Fox Creek Kid]

REMEMBER: once the Gemini guy "fixes" the gun you will have null & voided the warranty and you're on your own. If I were you, I'd send it back to the co. for an authorized repair as you are not 100% sure what the problem is at this point. Word to the wise.  

[joec]

REMEMBER: once the Gemini guy "fixes" the gun you will have null & voided the warranty and you're on your own. If I were you, I'd send it back to the co. for an authorized repair as you are not 100% sure what the problem is at this point. Word to the wise.  

Not a problem, as my ASM I'm the third owner of it. Not only no warranty but the company is no longer in business. I had no problem getting it fixed locally. The same with my new right from the box Rossi 92 rifle. I got it, cleaned it and loaded it with dummy 45 colt rounds and promptly figured out it had a feed/eject problem, it would feed or eject. I called Rossi, they sent a shipping label with Fed Ex and two weeks later I got it back. I then put 100 rounds through it with out a single problem I then took the Steve Gunz DVD and parts to a local gunsmith that I purchased while waiting for the gun to be returned. He did the tune minus what I asked him not to do (cutting some of the springs down). I've since shot another 200 rounds all trouble free as well as my first NCOWS event with out a problem with it. I have no intention of sending it to Rossi again ever. I might call them and order parts over time but would never expect them to service it again as I understand it is out of warranty.

On the other hand I have a RIA/Armscor 1911 compact that had a problem but still loved the feel of the gun. I sent it to their service department and asked about custom work. They did most under warranty as far as replacing parts to fix the problem and I paid for a JHP tune job and Novak Tritium night sights. Since they did the work it still carries the life time warranty, but then this is my daily CCDW gun so my life might depend on some day. Difference to me between toys and tools really. The cowboy action stuff are recreation while others are really important to work correctly. 

[joec]

An update on this gun. It was shipped today from Stoeger Industries back to my FFL. The repairs are done and they opened the cylinder/barrel gap which was less than .001". They also did some other repairs of problem in this gun I wasn't aware of. When I get it back and have a chance to shot it then I will know how it turned out.

[Coffinmaker]

Sheesh

Coffinmaker

[joec]

Sheesh

Coffinmaker

No problem Coffinmaker I won't post back then. 

[jefff]

joec,i hope this solves your problems and look forward to shooting with you.its very hard sometimes to figure out what is causeing the the problems without a hands on look at the gun.the people on this forum i have found to be helpful but words on a screen can only give you a path that may lead you to where you want to be.most of the people that post here want to do the work themselves so that is the advice they offer.good luck and i hope all turs out well for you.jeff