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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  NCOWS (Moderator: Will Ketchum)  |  Topic: Links to NCOWS Approved & Unapproved Lists 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Links to NCOWS Approved & Unapproved Lists  (Read 27910 times)
Will Ketchum
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« on: April 14, 2011, 10:40:37 am »


Approved List-   http://www.ncows.org/approved.html

Unapproved List-   http://www.ncows.org/unapproved.html

Will Ketchum
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 11:46:20 am »

Thanks Will!  

Here is a handy set of links to the NCOWS Approved and Not-Approved lists.  These lists detail the firearms that have been reviewed and approved or not approved by the Congress.  When in doubt, check it out.

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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 09:38:09 am »

  One change should be made to the unapproved list. Last year a change was made to approve already approved banana-grip Webley revolvers, that do not have banana-grips. (does that make sense?)    jt
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 05:15:38 pm »

Okay, Here is another is-it-approved question.

I wrote in another thread that I am enamoured of the John Bodine .45-70 Pedersoli with its double triggers.

Since double triggers were only made ona a custom one-off basis on Remingtons, would a double trigger rifle be on the approved list by NCOWS/

I already have one rifle that is not approved by NCOWS .... Would I be better , as I said on the other thread, to buy a Pedersoli that has all the bells and whistles but no double trigger rig?
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 10:09:22 pm »

WWE,

The double set triggers are OK.  They were available in the NCOWS period.  Go for it!
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 11:07:16 pm »

And here I was thinkin' 'bout a single trigger so that I could compete with it ...

I just didn't want to have to beg/borrow/steal a Model 73 without a stroke kit 'cause I can't use the Codymatic I already bought with the stroke kit ... and then have to beg/borrow/or steal a Buffalo Rifle on top of the '73 ...

Two rifles to buy redundants for would be too many ... LOL
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 12:20:46 am »

Gents,

 My apologies on this but I need to hijack your thread for a second, as it seems the site is not working for my computer the way it should, and I know Mr. Ellis will be keeping track of this post and will know to get in touch with me:

 WaddWatsonEllis,

 I have replied to your post in the classifieds, please get ahold of me at johnnyshoes@netzero.com Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards, John.
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 03:39:09 am »

John,

I think we are on track now .... so send me a PM if anything new pops up....

I sympathize with your computer problems ... I have always felt that there was a very good reason not to store guns coumputers, and ammo in the same room ... *G*
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2012, 03:23:18 pm »

For those NCOWS members who share details for the approved and unapproved listing...

I learned yesterday that my Uberti Hombre was not NCOWS legal, but I see nothing on the unapproved list. The addition of this firearm to that listing would be quite helpful for those of us who are new to NCOWS.
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1961MJS
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2012, 06:04:48 pm »

For those NCOWS members who share details for the approved and unapproved listing...

I learned yesterday that my Uberti Hombre was not NCOWS legal, but I see nothing on the unapproved list. The addition of this firearm to that listing would be quite helpful for those of us who are new to NCOWS.

Hi

Is there any reason given as to WHY it's illegal?  I looked it up, and it looks like a plain (very plain) SAA to me.  If it's the Matt finish, then is the Chisholm illegal too?

Later

Mike
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 06:44:44 pm »

The matte finish is the reason.... The Hombre & the Chisholm, Just as the USFA Rodeo Matte is not approved finish.

All of these can be aged finished and be made to pass muster for NCOWS.
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2012, 06:47:52 pm »

In an effort to keep things simple, NCOWS tries not to over-legislate.  When looking at a revolver and it's "not on the list", ask yourself:  did this weapon in my hand exist 1865 to 1899?  If you don't know, hit the books or post a question here.  

Did a brushed or matte or satin metallic finish exist back then?  Not that I can locate.   Gold plate, silver plate, French grey, nickel, bluing (a variety, all shiny) and 'in the white' are all documented.

Our general firearm covenant states:

No modern (post 1899) firearms will be allowed unless they are authentic reproductions of traditional firearms or very markedly resemble traditional firearms. Traditional firearms are defined as those manufactured prior to or during the era 1865-1899 and in documented use on the North American Frontier within that time period. Center-fire calibers may substitute for original rim-fire calibers in reproduction firearms. Reproduction firearms chambered in calibers not utilized in original models shall be allowed as long as such calibers are original to the period or are otherwise approved by the National Congress of Old West Shootists.


One of the important facets of NCOWS is our "look".  One of our goals at every match is to look around and not see anything that looks like the 20th (or 21st) century.

Do we scrutinize each other:  yes. (in a friendly manner & mostly amongst the established or veteran members.). The scrutiny is held to a higher standard at "big matches".  

I for one enjoy the scrutiny.  It usually evolves into a lively discussion where we all learn something new. I like that.  

And, if you think your item (matte finish in this case) should be authorized, prepare some historic documentation of your claim and approach our Authenticity Committee.  
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 07:54:33 pm »

It was not just the matte finish (which I can easily remove) but the brass backstrap. That one has me puzzled.
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2012, 09:31:50 pm »

It was not just the matte finish (which I can easily remove) but the brass backstrap. That one has me puzzled.

Colt SAA's were never produced by Colt with brass grip frames.   You see them in movies a lot, but they did not exist.  See RL Wilson's big Colt book for reference.

Colt dropped the production of brass grip backstraps before the start of the Civil War.  By the time the SAA came to be, all factory frames were iron.
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2012, 05:25:01 am »

It was not just the matte finish (which I can easily remove) but the brass backstrap. That one has me puzzled.

Also easily replaced  Wink
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1961MJS
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2012, 02:02:28 pm »

Hi

PERSONALLY, I'd like to be able to shoot a matt gun, but I understand NCOWS traditional approach, so I'd leave it alone.  What I don't understand is why a company would bother to try and sell a a non-authentic reproduction firearm.  I guess that they're making money on them or it wouldn't be there.

Later Y'all

Mike
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 02:25:12 pm »



MIke:

I think you pretty much answered your own question -- it's always about the $$$$.
Keep in mind that "cowboy shooters" are really a small part of the overall firearms market.

And NCOWS is only a small part of that small part. Manufacturers would probably go broke if they depended on NCOWS for their sales. SASS has no such restrictions and is many times larger that we are. They represent a much bigger share of the pie than we do.


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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2012, 06:19:27 pm »

Thanks guys for the advice. Will gladly get mine up to NCOWS rules as it will make for a fun weekend project. But for the benefit of new members learning their way, it would be helpful to include hints about issues such as mine on the lists. It could be the difference in keeping a new shooter interested in NCOWS.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 05:38:18 pm »

I have always hated all these combinations of guns, the supposedly Confederate models that never existed, etc,etc.

In the short time I've shot NCOWS I've already seen several guys buy some of these "guns that never existed" when starting to shoot and find out they are not legal. Problem is so many "actually most" gun dealers don't know themselves nor do they know the rules of various shooting groups and they will mislead customers just to sell something. Gun dealers not aware of anything but SASS and hollywood will also talk them into other models with modification that are not legal.

Always do your homework and if your not sure ask someone that knows before buying.

Generally with handguns if it has a brass frame do some homework before buying it for NCOWS use.
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 09:08:35 pm »

I have always hated all these combinations of guns, the supposedly Confederate models that never existed, etc,etc.

In the short time I've shot NCOWS I've already seen several guys buy some of these "guns that never existed" when starting to shoot and find out they are not legal. Problem is so many "actually most" gun dealers don't know themselves nor do they know the rules of various shooting groups and they will mislead customers just to sell something. Gun dealers not aware of anything but SASS and hollywood will also talk them into other models with modification that are not legal.

Always do your homework and if your not sure ask someone that knows before buying.

Generally with handguns if it has a brass frame do some homework before buying it for NCOWS use.

So I'm guessing my replica of an 1864 CH Rigdon revolver would be allowed?  

I notice that Lightning rifles are on the approved list; but the AWAs are not specifically mentioned - yea or nay?

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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 10:43:47 pm »

So I'm guessing my replica of an 1864 CH Rigdon revolver would be allowed?  

I notice that Lightning rifles are on the approved list; but the AWAs are not specifically mentioned - yea or nay?

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

Fingers, I think the problem here is really that the list did not incorporate all the "Lightning" rifles that were manufactured as replicas.  The Perdersoli is not listed, either.  Neither is the Uberti.  But I doubt seriously that anyone would say nay to one.  As long as they are faithful to the original design (not much you can do to change that actually) an are in approved calibers, go for it.

As for the Leech & Rigdon, I have used mine before.  It existed.  The only real problem with the Uberti is that they produce it with the Colt style cylinder scene, rather than smooth.  Even so, I don't really think there is a problem with it.  Two years ago, there was a motion that went to Congress to form a list of BP revolvers approved and disapproved.  Basically, the list would be so long that it got tabled.  The main idea here on the BP revolver is to stay away from the patently non-existent (historically) ones out there like the 44 Caliber 51 Navy and the brass frame Colt and Remington replicas.  Yes, there were some like the Spiller & Burr and the Griswold & Gunnison that were brass frame originally.  Those would surely be allowed.  But Colt did not make brass frame revolvers.

An interesting idea - one could form a pretty darn correct L&R from a Pietta 1851 Navy and a Pietta G&G.  Barrel and cylinder from the G&G on the frame of the the 51, it would look right.

I use a Pietta G&G some, but the first thing I did when I got it was strip the bluing off the steel parts to make it look more like a real one.  As I understand it, they were made of unfinished twisted iron on a brass frame because the Confederates had a serious steel shortage.
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« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2012, 08:59:22 pm »

Thanks for the reply Tom.  My Rigdons are faithful recreations of the 1864 Model CH Rigdon Augusta revolvers complete with smooth cylinders that have 12 bolt stop cuts instead of the normal 6.  They have been completely defarbed and remarked to replicate the originals.  Uberti did make L&Rs with smooth unengraved cylinders, you just gotta luck on them sometimes.  Mine were originally made in 1977 and 2007

My remakes




an original

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Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee;
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« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2012, 09:35:59 pm »

VERY nice, Fingers!
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« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2012, 02:16:52 pm »

Hi

Based on what I see in this thread, but not in the NCOWS disapproved list, I should be shooting .45 Long Colt in my SAA.  SASS really pushes .38 Special in many of their threads and pages.  Actually to be REALLY authentic, I should be shooting .44/40 in both SAA and '73 Winchester.  .38 Special wasn't introduced until 1898.  Do I have to shoot .45 Long Colt or is it just more Period Correct?

Later

Mike
Norman OK
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« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2012, 03:29:17 pm »

Hi

Based on what I see in this thread, but not in the NCOWS disapproved list, I should be shooting .45 Long Colt in my SAA.  SASS really pushes .38 Special in many of their threads and pages.  Actually to be REALLY authentic, I should be shooting .44/40 in both SAA and '73 Winchester.  .38 Special wasn't introduced until 1898.  Do I have to shoot .45 Long Colt or is it just more Period Correct?

Later

Mike
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Brand new member of OKC Gun Club as of December 1, 2012

Mike, actually you can shoot any of the approved calibers in any of your guns.  There are those that like to try to match caliber to year and firearms, but you can shoot anything listed in the approved list.  According to the Tally Book (http://www.ncows.org/2012tally-book.pdf)

Approved calibers and loads include any that were introduced prior to or during the period of 1865-1899 and that were originally introduced as a black powder load. Common examples include but are not limited to: .22 rimfire, .32-20 WCF, .32 S&W Short, .32 S&W Long, .38-40 WCF, .44-40 WCF, .44 S&W American, .44 S&W Russian, .45 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .45-70 Government. Any cartridge designation that was not originally introduced as a black powder load will not be allowed except for appropriate firearms in the smokeless cartridge division only, or for specifically-designated shooting events. .38 Special/.357 Magnum and .44 Special/.44 Magnum cartridges will be allowed if loaded with black powder or with smokeless powder to black powder velocities.

Bottom line, shoot what you have or want as long as it is not a modern caliber.  If you want to shoot 45 Colt, go for it.  If you want to shoot 38 Spl, well it is more economical.  Me, I just like a big boom, so don't often shoot 38 caliber guns.  But there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
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