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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Spencer Shooting Society (Moderator: Two Flints)  |  Topic: Spencer serial number search 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Spencer serial number search  (Read 1850 times)
wormey
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« on: February 12, 2011, 07:22:19 pm »


Well, I made the plunge today.  Traded for an 1860 Spencer carbine serial # 28066.  Can you help me out with any information?  Thanks, Wormey Smiley
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wormey
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 08:38:25 pm »

Two flints, there must be a problem with the email.  I didn`t get anything.  Would you try again.  wormeyc@yahoo.com.  Thanks.  I`ll have to get some help on posting pics, but will do. Grin 
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wormey
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2011, 09:32:35 pm »

Many thanks for your quick reply Two Flints!  Now I`ll have to find out where Co. K of the 6th Ill. Cav. spent the remainder of 1864, 1864, and 1865.  Gotta get this thing ready to shoot now.  It`ll be me and Judge Fox.  ( 5judge)
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JimBob
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2011, 10:10:38 pm »

Many thanks for your quick reply Two Flints!  Now I`ll have to find out where Co. K of the 6th Ill. Cav. spent the remainder of 1864, 1864, and 1865.  Gotta get this thing ready to shoot now.  It`ll be me and Judge Fox.  ( 5judge)

From the information in Dyer's Compendium it look like they spent a lot of their time chasing Nathan Bedford Forrest. Smiley
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5judge
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 05:58:47 am »

 Might "1863" not be a typo to describe the year of issuance of the carbine described in this thread? Seems perhaps "1864" would be closer the mark. And, as an aside, the 6th Illinois would likely have been philosophical about turning-in their old carbines...grape vine Gynn & Campbell Cosmopolitans that many were.
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JimBob
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 11:41:38 am »

A liitle information regrding the 6th Illinois and Spencers-

From the ORs:

"I respectfully request...to arm..the Sixth with the Spencer carbine". Correspondance of Brig.Gen. Grierson dated May 24,1864

In the book "Arming the Suckers" by Ken Bauman Spencer carbines do not turn up on the Quarterly Ordnance Stores reports of the 6th Illinois till the 3rd quarter of 1864.The QOS reports throughout 1863 show only Cosmopolitan and Sharps carbines.This book is a primary source for arms used by Illinois units in the Civil War taken from the QOS reports turned in by the various units located at the National Archives.



Illinois was known as the "Sucker State" during the 19th and well into the 20th century,hence the title of the book.
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JimBob
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 01:31:54 pm »

If I'm reading the information right,initial deliveries of Spencer Carbines took place in Oct.1863 with aprox. 8,000 delivered by the end of the year.Given the 28,000 range serial number and the information in the 6ths QOS reports I find the SRS date of 1863 to be at odds with the available information.LOL It does say in the forward,"we have used our best judgement in assigning dates,leaving the month and/or day blank if we are unsure of them."Given the information in the ORs and Baumann's book and giving consideration to the area the 6th was operating in at the time I find an assignment of the issue date of 1863 in the SRS books for that unit to be somewhat questionable.
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JimBob
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 04:00:36 pm »

LOL It was mostly directed at the owner of the carbine to point areas of search out to find who might have had it orginally not to question your remarks.It is my opinion highly unlikely the 6th Illinois had it in 1863 given the information available from other sources consideration being given to delivery dates and area of operation of the 6th and the supply methods and time frames involved in their area of operation during the CW.

I've owned the SRS books for years,a couple going back far enough to be autographed by Frank Mallory.I've run dozens if not hundreds of numbers for myself and others.In trying to provenance a firearm using the SRS books if it ain't there,it ain't there.Close only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes. Shocked Smiley
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5judge
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 05:46:02 pm »

Merely for the sake of accuracy, and not of contradiction,  JimBob appears to have the right of it: Spencer did not deliver carbines until a lot turned over to the Ordnance Department in October, 1863. Only rifles were in the hands of the troops before then and, getting its first contract for carbines in 1863, the company had first to complete existing rifle orders before it turned whole-heartedly to carbine production, although there was some overlappage. My carbine in the 14,500 range was part of the last 1863 delivery by Spencer to the Ordnance Department on 7 December of that year. Given the serial number of my friend Wormey's newly acquired Spencer, the March, 1863 date must be a typo, apparently in the printed source material. His appears an 1864 manufactured piece, thus delivered to Ordnance no earlier than 1864. In any event, it appears Spencer wasn't yet into general production of carbines in March, '63.
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JimBob
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 01:42:12 am »

Hmmmmm It appears I made some mad doesn't it. Roll Eyes

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Two Flints
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 08:30:30 am »

Hi JimBob,

Me? mad? hardly Grin Grin  Apparently, my information as posted along with my disclaimer was incorrect. So I deleted it. The March was a mistake, and maybe it should have been October or November.  I'll give you that one.  But the 1863?, well, if you feel it should be 1864, and can cite a better reference and primary source than my SRS book from which I obtained the year 1863, then so be it.  

Sure wish I had a primary source arms book for every military unit that fought in the Civil War Roll Eyes Roll Eyes and sure wish I was young and handsome again Roll Eyes Roll Eyes but it ain't gonna happen Undecided

And please, don't forget, I encouraged you to join SSS just this past week because of the great information you've posted on SSS in the past.  So, am I mad?  Nope  Wink

Thanks,

Two Flints
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5judge
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 10:31:56 am »

     Happening to be online at the moment, I'll take the liberty of addressing yours of earlier this morning, Two Flints. To be brief, Roy Marcot's Spencer book in the chapter on M1860 carbines pretty well sets out 1863 delivery of carbine perameters. He includes the June, 1863 correspondence betwixt Spencer and the Ordnance Department which first mooted the idea of carbine procurement. The book sets-out the development to fruition of the very first carbine delivery in October, 1863. A mere 7,000 carbines were delivered in 1863. By the serial number of Wormey's new acquisition, it falls in 1864 production.
    This is no reflection upon your good offices providing the Springfield data, just that this "March 1863" bit of data is certainly in error. And in no way does it deminish our appreciation of your providing this forum. Having collected Civil War firearms for fifty years, I acquired my first Spencer just last December. Received it refurbished (from Wormey himself!) yesterday. I'm leaving now for the range for my first-ever Spencer shooting session.
    I should further add that I've known Wormey many decades and he just ain't worth much, certainly not any misunderstanding or disharmony amonst the brethren.
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Two Flints
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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 11:05:42 am »

Hi 5judge,

Thanks again for pointing our my error stating that "march 1863" was the 'date of issue'.  However, I have already admitted to my "March" error (but not the 1863 'cause I read 1863 in my SRS book).  So why bring it up again Huh Huh  It really would be very nice to move on to something else.

But, just to clarify, yes, I was in error about the month of "March".

And if that's not clear enough, let me repeat, I was wrong with my March statement!  I was wrong with my March statement! I was wrong with my March statement! I was wrong with my March statement! I was wrong with my March statement! I was wrong with my March statement! I was wrong with my March statement! I was wrong with my March statement!
 

Now, let's move on!

Two Flints

  
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JimBob
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2011, 12:39:47 pm »

Gentlemen,let us all agree to disagree. :)Two Flints,I don't have source information on on every CW unit just on some Illinois units.You see I'm a native born "Sucker" with an interest in Illinois military history and the Civil War.If you had posted the SRS information that it showed as likely issued to the 6th Penn. I would have thought "that's interesting" and read the next thread.I was just trying to show how I arrived at my reply.The SRS dates just sounded too early.The 6th re-enlisted as Veteran Volunteers on March 30,1864 and were furloghed back to Illinois returning to camp July 7 in Memphis at which time they would have been re-equiped according to the standard procedures of the time.With the appearance of Spencer's for the first time on QOS reports in the 3rd Quarter of 1864 would tend to confirm that.They finally got rid of those danged old Cosmopolitan Carbines,replaced by the dreaded Yankee "horizontal shot tower".

You made no error.You just posted the information available to you,so did Mallory.I took the research a little farther and narrowed the dates down a bit more.From experience old records are hard to read and decipher,they made mistakes back then just like now,it is the nature of the animal.
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Two Flints
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2011, 01:26:06 pm »

Hi JimBob & 5judge and all of SSS,

No, the "March",  I included in my disclaimer statement was indeed a mistake, my error. Geez, I've said it again Tongue Tongue 

Apparently, I carried the "March" down from the unit listed above the 6th Illinois Cavalry, which is the 2nd NY Volunteer Cavalry. To my way of thinking I should have just indicated the year 1863 and let it go at that.

In any case, I'm locking this thread.  Further discussion would be redundant. Unlike Obama, I've admitted my mistake Undecided Undecided  and more than once Shocked  On the bright side, the OP Wormie has his "corrected" serial # information, notwithstanding my mistake.

Peace to all,

Two Flints
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Moderating SSS is a "labor of love"
Viet Vet  '68-69
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Spencer Shooting Society Moderator
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NRA; GOAL; SAM; NMLRA
Fur Trade Era - Mountain Man
Traditional Archery
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Spencer Shooting Society (Moderator: Two Flints)  |  Topic: Spencer serial number search « previous next »
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