.45 Colt and Bullseye Powder

[USBP1969]

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Howdy,

Looks like I'll be getting back into reloading again after many years.  I will be using my old reliable Lyman 310 tool that I used in reloading for .38 Special for PPC PPC competition years ago.  Since the 310 tool only neck sizes I forwent all sizing and just used a good crimp to hold the 148 grain wadcutter. That meant that I had to use a very fast burning powder since there was no friction between the casing and the lead bullet.  That powder was Bullseye.  I started loading using 2.5 and 2.7 grains and had about the same accuracy as with factory issue wadcutters, but when I tried 3.0 grains of Bullseye the 50 yards groups shrunk by 50% in four different S&W's. Al I could figure was that the 3.0 grain (higher velocity) loading was better suited to the slow 18 3/4" twist if the S&W's.

The problem is that the .45 Colt has a huge internal volume.  I'll be using between 6.0 and 6.5 grains of Bullseye, but it'll still be just a pinch compared to case volume.  Two questions, if I may:

1) Should this pose any problem?
2) I read somewhere 30+ years ago of putting some toilet paper on top of the Bullseye to keep it in a consistent position in the .45 Colt casing. (I tried it with the .38, but saw no difference and had no grass fires.)

I'd appreciate any thoughts / experiences that you might have.

thanks,
kent

[Christopher Carson]

Why not experiment with changing powders?  There are several others that might be suitable.

For exampe, IMR's Trail Boss, and to a certain extent Hodgdon's Clays and Alliant's Red Dot, are bulkier powders... and Hodgdon's TiteGroup is designed to be "position insensitive."  Might be others you'd like...

-Chris

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

1. Without knowing what weight of bullet you are planning to use it is impossible to comment on any specific powder charge.

2. Yes, the 45 Colt case is huge. Most reloaders start to experience lots of blowby with it if their powder charges are too light. In theory, most Smokeless powders need to generate around 5000 psi before the bullet starts moving in order to get a good burn going. Light bullets and/or light neck tension are a prescription for troublesome loads in 45 Colt. So are very light loads which leave a lot of airspace inside. When using light loads, a really firm crimp is necessary to hold the bullet back while pressure builds behind it. I have no experience with a 310 tool, so I cannot comment on using it without resizing. Perhaps you will retard the bullet enough with just a firm crimp. I really do not know.

3. Everything I have read says NOT to add anything inside the case to restrict the position of the powder. The resulting pressure increase is unpredictable.

4. If you do not want to invest in a bench press, which is entirely understandable, perhaps you should think about switching to a powder that will fill up the cavernous 45 Colt case better. There are lots of options. I like Unique. Trailboss was invented specifically for this application.

[USBP1969]

Hi Driftwood.

The reason I started using Bullseye years ago with the 310 tool is that I was concerned that any slower burning powder would require the friction of the resized casing for a proper burn.  It was a risk at the time since I wasn't sure it would work, but it did indeed perform well.

I asked the question because, years ago, a bunch of folks were loading the .45-70 with smokeless powder (usually 2400) and filling the air space over the powder with kapok.

I suspect I should contact the manufacturers of the other, larger volume, powders that were mentioned to see if they require neck tension.

I remember the NRA doing a test of factory 148 grain hollow base wadcutters back then.  They measured the chamber pressure of a standard factory load and then progressively pushed the bullet deeper and deeper into the case while recording the pressure increase.

When the wadcutter (hollow base) was pushed down to rest on top of the powder the CUP was 33,000 PSI!

KW

[Cookie]

I echo the suggestion of the two previous posters - give IMR's Trail Boss a try.

Trail Boss was specifically designed to fill up these large bore older cases like the .45 Colt. It is much less dense than most other powders, and therefore takes up much more space in the case. (If you haven't seen it, Trail Boss looks like small grey donuts.)

The real danger with most smokeless powders in the .45 Colt is double charging.  Because the powder's high volume and grey color (not black) you have to work really hard to double charge a case.



Trail Boss Double Charge on Left
Bullseye Double Charge on Right

[PJ Hardtack]

Kent

You're getting some good advice. Fuggegaboud Bulls Eye as a powder for 45 Colt! It's a powder designed for what it excells at - accuracy in small volume cases for target shooting. I knew a guy shooting BE in his 1st Generation SAA and it was gun abuse IMHO. The muzzle blast and flash were objectionable.
Trail Boss is good in the 45 Colt as it fills so much of the case volume, making it impossible to double charge or not charge at all. It's the only good use I've found for TB so far, having tried it in .44 Spl., 44-40 and .38 Spl.
A good 45 Colt load is 6 grs of Red Dot. Mike Venturino (out of his book on shooting SAAs) and others use it and it's worth exploring. I use the same load in my 44-40 rifles and carbines under 215 RNFPs and it perks.
I would caution you about using wads in any large volume case. Many good articles have been written about it causing barrel ringing in BPCRs. It's a known phenomenon, a ballistic anomally not yet quite fully understood, except that it happens often enough to not warrant taking a chance.

[Stu Kettle]

I load my .45 Colts with a 230 grain round nose bullet & 6 grains of Red Dot because when I got the pistol I already had a pile of those bullets & a mold to make more, and a big ol' jug of Red Dot on hand.  If I had Bulls Eye on hand I'd use 6 Grains of that, because that is what the manufacturer recommends.

[USBP1969]

Stu,
I saw that 6.0 / 230 listing an the Alliant's site as well as one for the 250 that was a little hot using 7.0 grains.  I thought that I might use 6.5 grains with a 250 grain.

Cookie,
I emailed Alliant expressing concern in regards to the large volume casing and the small amount of Bullseye.  They stated that there would be no problem. Perhaps I should email IMR and ask if the Trail Boss powder can be used with only a crimp holding the bullet in place.

PJ,
Well, I am limited to Bullseye because of the use of the Lyman 310 "nut Cracker" tool.  When I purchased it in 1970 I didn't know that it neck sized only.  I was a sad puppy dog when I found that out, but when I read that Bullseye, due to its extremely fast burn rate, did not need the resistance supplied by a resided casing (like 2400, H110, etc.) I gave it a try with no resizing.  It worked superbly in the .38 Special.  The two limiting factors were that it needed a hard cast bullet when using over 3.0 grains or excess leading would occur and it was terrible for use with jacketed bullets.  The .45 Colt case volume is way bigger though.

To all,
I am in the processing of selling several handguns to be able to purchase the .45 Colt, but if the large casing becomes an issue I might have to purchase the .38 /.357 version of the same model.  I'd prefer not to do that since the balance between the two SAA's is quite a bit different and the it will be used for point shooting almost exclusively.

KW

[Shotgun Franklin]

If you check around Pawn Shops or garage sells you could likely pickup a single stage press real cheap.

[PJ Hardtack]

Stu

You missed the point ....

I'm not a ballistician, but I think that 6 grs of Bulls Eye probably generates a pressure curve not entirely friendly to a 1st generation Colt SAA. It might be fine in a modern gun with improved metallurgy.
I recall a time when every Colt .38 Spl./.357 had a .44/.45 barrel installed and the cylinder rebored to suit. These would have a heat treated cylinder.
As for the 1911 having 'spot hardening' in critical areas, the strength of the Colt/Browning is due to intelligent engineering, not the strength of the metal. I remember a pal's  GI 1911 that rattled when you shook it! He put in a new surplus barrel and bushing and we had great fun plinking with it. It grouped amazingly well with our IPSC loads. His theory was that it had maxed out on all it's tolerances and would never get looser.
For all I know, it's still shooting .....

[Stu Kettle]

Stu

You missed the point ....

I'm not a ballistician, but I think that 6 grs of Bulls Eye probably generates a pressure curve not entirely friendly to a 1st generation Colt SAA. It might be fine in a modern gun with improved metallurgy.
I recall a time when every Colt .38 Spl./.357 had a .44/.45 barrel installed and the cylinder rebored to suit. These would have a heat treated cylinder.
As for the 1911 having 'spot hardening' in critical areas, the strength of the Colt/Browning is due to intelligent engineering, not the strength of the metal. I remember a pal's  GI 1911 that rattled when you shook it! He put in a new surplus barrel and bushing and we had great fun plinking with it. It grouped amazingly well with our IPSC loads. His theory was that it had maxed out on all it's tolerances and would never get looser.
For all I know, it's still shooting .....

I'm not sure what point you refer to, who mentioned 1st generation Colts or 'spot hardening' in 1911s at all?  I thought the question was "can I use what I have?" & I still think the answer is yes.  BTW, aren't you the guy who said "a good load for .45 Colt is 6 grains of Red Dot"?  I'm not a ballistician either, but I would think that a faster burning powder (Red Dot) would create more pressure with the same charge than a slower burning powder (Bullseye), or would it not?

[USBP1969]

Been looking for a powder burn rate chart.

Finally found one:  http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

And I thought Bullseye was the fastest...

KW

[Stu Kettle]

Guess it depends of whose chart you look at.

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/general/burnchart.php

[Stu Kettle]

and note this disclaimer on THE RELOAD BENCH chart:

*** This is the approximate order of burning rates for established brands of powder from fastest to slowest. Powders tend to switch positions especially those close in burning rate, depending upon the characteristics of the cartridge and other variables. Be sure to refer to manufacturer loading data manuals for proper charges.

I guess Red Dot & Bullseye fall in that catagory.

[PJ Hardtack]

Stu

Speer Manual #14 lists up to 6 grs of BE in the 45 Colt with 225/230 gr bullets, so you have a point. Like I said earlier, I found the muzzle blast and flash objectionable. Another pal used to put 7 grs of BE behind a hard cast 158 gr SWC in his Colt Python. During indoor shooting, the muzzle flash was dazzling in dim light.
The 6 grs of Red Dot/250 gr has been a standard loading since made popular in Venturino's book on shooting SAAs.
You pays you money, you takes you choice.

[USBP1969]

Thanks Stu.

Now I have two charts I didn't have two days ago.

The 310 tool really is the limiting factor in all this.  When I was stationed in Whitefish Montana I contracted Colorado Tick Fever and came very close to checking out for good.  Since no one up there would accept Aetna Government insurance I had to foot the bill myself.  I sold all my reloading gear  as well, as several thousand bullets and casings to the local gun shop to cover the medical costs.  That left me with my old faithful 310. 

Looking back to the early 1970's when I sat at the kitchen table loading 148 grain Speer HBWC over 3.0 grains of Bullseye for PPC competition brought back some fond memories.  Now at age 68 fond memories are a good thing.  Problem is, the 310 is buried out in the storage shed somewhere in the 4000# of unpacked boxes from our last move and at age 68 and a full-time caregiver I don't really relish the thought of trying find it.

Maybe a .22 would be good.


KW

[Stu Kettle]

Stu

Speer Manual #14 lists up to 6 grs of BE in the 45 Colt with 225/230 gr bullets, so you have a point. Like I said earlier, I found the muzzle blast and flash objectionable. Another pal used to put 7 grs of BE behind a hard cast 158 gr SWC in his Colt Python. During indoor shooting, the muzzle flash was dazzling in dim light.
The 6 grs of Red Dot/250 gr has been a standard loading since made popular in Venturino's book on shooting SAAs.
You pays you money, you takes you choice.

I don't have a Speer manual, does it recommend a Bullseye charge for a 250 gr bullet in .45 Colt?  Not that I'd buy any, never have, I buy Red Dot in the 8lb jugs.  I load 5 gr with a 250 gr bullet in .44 mag cases for CAS, the same charge with 230 gr bullets for .45acp, but wouldn't burn reliably in the .45 Colt so I went up to 6 gr & have been happy with it.  I load Red Dot in all my pistol and shotgun loads, & I'm considering trying it in several rifle calibers.
http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

[PJ Hardtack]

KW
A .22 is always useful, and cheap to shoot - BUT, you NEED something bigger. "Never bet your life in a gun fight on any calibre that doesn't start with .44 or .45 ..."  Old Sheriff saying. Why else are you on this forum?
I'm 68 as well and went thru' two months of cancer radiation therapy last summer. NEVER quit and NEVER say die! 'Cowboy UP' and git 'er done! When we come to a skiddin' stop at the end of the rodeo, all beat up and worn out, we'll say - "Been a hell of a ride, wasn't it?"
Which reminds me, as I wax philosophical ..... While hunting I ran across a wooden tombstone surrounded by a white picket fence on an old homestead site. To read it, you had to kneel. It said - "Lord, help us to live our lives so that at the final rodeo gate, You tell us that our entry fee has already been paid."  If that don't bring a lump to yer throat, I don't want to know you.

Stu

The current Speer #14 manual does not list Bulls Eye as a powder for 45 Colt and 250 gr bullets; 230 gr, yes, at max 6 grs. However, the #10 does - 7.1 grs(!)/250 for a reported 866 fps. This book, like a lot of other older manuals is regarded as having 'hot' loads, rifle and pistol. All current reloading manuals have toned down their loads somewhat.
Can't go wrong with Red Dot. I use it in 12 ga., .38 Spl., 44-40, .44 Spl. and .45 Colt. I also have a few lbs of the old, smoky Unique which I like as well. I was much influenced by Skeeter Skelton's writings. When I first got my .45 Colts, I shot 7.5-8 grs/250. My pals went up to 8.5.

[USBP1969]

Hi Stu.

Well, I'd like to carry something that started with .44 or .45 and would if I lived out in the boonies.  However, since that's not possible, I do carry a S&W 442 16 hours + per day with Magsafe ammo, so I should be OK. 

My close range vision is gone, but still qualify annually with a 249 out of 250 possible.  (I keep pulling one out of the 5 ring shooting left hand only.)

I am on this forum because, for reasons unknown, I seem to have a DNA connection to three weapons. (1873 Colt, 1873 Trapdoor Springfield and a Bowie knife.**)  I carried a .38 or a .357 4" Double action in Border Patrol from 1969 - 1996 when we had to switch to semi-automatics, but there is just something about those three weapons.  That's why I am here.  (**The only clue I have is that I had a distant relative who was a U.S. Marshal way back when.)

(PM sent concerning the rest.)

KW

[Christopher Carson]

Thanks Stu.

Now I have two charts I didn't have two days ago.

The 310 tool really is the limiting factor in all this.  When I was stationed in Whitefish Montana I contracted Colorado Tick Fever and came very close to checking out for good.  Since no one up there would accept Aetna Government insurance I had to foot the bill myself.  I sold all my reloading gear  as well, as several thousand bullets and casings to the local gun shop to cover the medical costs.  That left me with my old faithful 310. 

Looking back to the early 1970's when I sat at the kitchen table loading 148 grain Speer HBWC over 3.0 grains of Bullseye for PPC competition brought back some fond memories.  Now at age 68 fond memories are a good thing.  Problem is, the 310 is buried out in the storage shed somewhere in the 4000# of unpacked boxes from our last move and at age 68 and a full-time caregiver I don't really relish the thought of trying find it.

Maybe a .22 would be good.


KW

If it helps, Lee makes a very inexpensive hand-held press that works much like a 310 tool but uses standard dies.

-Chris

[Virginia Gentleman]

A good alternative smokeless powder that is super clean burning and burns at a comparable rate to Bullseye is Hodgdon Clays.  Their recommended 4.2 to 5.1 grains of Clays in .45 Colt with a 250 grain LRNFP bullet has similar performance.  It is clean as a whistle compared to the smoke and soot laden Bullseye.

[USBP1969]

Thanks much.

I need to do some studying on Hodgdon Clays powder.

-kent

[Shotgun Franklin]

I've tried every powder listed in this posting. I settled on Red Dot because I can load it hot if I want to, it's cleaner than the others and it gives me good accuracy. I think if you try it you'll be happy with the results.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I have not found Red Dot to be anywhere close to Clays in terms of clean burning even with SPG lubed lead bullets. 

[USBP1969]

Did some searching.

There seems to be three different Clays listed on RCBS's powder measure list.  One is just "Clays", one is "Universal Clays," and one is "International Clays."  Is the one I'm looking for just listed as "Clays?"

Thanks,
-kent