it's starting to grate on me...

[kcub]

Hollywood playing fast and loose with history, and always has.

Like in the Westerner where Judge Roy Bean is the bad guy and there are cornhuskers supposedly in west Texas in a range war against cattlemen.  Fact is you can't grow either within hundreds of miles of Langtry, Texas.

Like where Jesse James or the Youngers are pure good guys.
Don't even get me started on How the West Was Won.

[Regret Chancy]

Regrettably this will always be. Hollywood spins history to suit its own ideas of the truth. They play it all off with maybes and what ifs. I mentioned once before that our own shooting clubs, while they may not be big name actors or even have acting experience, could put together more accurate period correct westerns with a little help from someone willing to edit and direct. Hell most of us would have all our own firearms and costumes and they would be originals or reproductions of period correct items. I got some criticism and sarcastic remarks. Ottawa Creek Bill is doing it and from what I have seen he is doing a doggone good job ;. I thought the SASS movie One Eyed Horse would be better than it turned out but for what I heard the budget was they did an excellent job . Maybe some people will get organized and make an effort. It sure would be nice to see some of our own making some money doing this. Even as a fundraiser to build shooting stages for there clubs.
                                                                                                                Regret Chancy

[Bob R.]

What! Judge Roy Bean wasn't gunned down by a blond Mexican kid wielding a Shmidt-Rubin while sitting on the porch of his establishment! Say it ain't so!....

[Advertising]

[kcub]

In the original Alamo (with John Wayne) Chill Wills dies twice in the final battle.

Both times he jumps to his death from the wall with a sabre stuck through and through his belly with a Mexican's head half-Nelsoned under each arm.  Man, that was one tough Texian!  Died twice and took 4 Mexicans with him without a weapon!  Climbed back on top of the wall after he died the first time!

[Stillwater]

I feel the same way as you do about Hollywood and their playing fast and loose with historical figures and events. There isn't going to be anything we can do about it, even if we all organized a boycott.

So, I just look at movies for their entertainment value only.

What does make me angry about the movie industry, is their blatant hypocrisy. They have these vociferously arrogant, anti-gun actors making movies, where firearms are used in every scene.

Bill

[Mogorilla]

Hard part of history is knowing what the person was like.  Hardin seemingly had a respectable side as a lawyer later in life, depending on who you talked to and where, Jesse James was saint or devil.  Either way, Frank James was never convicted of anything and lived a long respectable life.  Billy the kid, well depending on your side in the Lincoln County wars, he was also sinner/saint.  He was really just a pawn who made it to the end of the board and became a more important piece in the game.  The Earps didn't wear white hats, they were pimps and gamblers, seldom portrayed that way though.  Just my $0.02

[Stillwater]

Hard part of history is knowing what the person was like.  Hardin seemingly had a respectable side as a lawyer later in life, depending on who you talked to and where, Jesse James was saint or devil.  Either way, Frank James was never convicted of anything and lived a long respectable life.  Billy the kid, well depending on your side in the Lincoln County wars, he was also sinner/saint.  He was really just a pawn who made it to the end of the board and became a more important piece in the game.  The Earps didn't wear white hats, they were pimps and gamblers, seldom portrayed that way though.  Just my $0.02

What you're saying is perfectly correct. No person, well there are a few exceptions, like Hitler and Stalin, is neither all good, nor all bad.

Frank james probably wasn't they killer that his brother Jesse James was, however, he was guilty of Civil War atrocities such as participating in Quantrill's raid on Lawrence, Kansas. That wasn't exactly an afternoon social event.

I had real close relatives on the Murphy-Dolan side of the Lincoln County War. John Marmaduke Beckwith and Robert Beckwith, killed in the Lincoln County War, were direct relatives. The persons in the Lincoln County War that I dislike the most, are Sheriff Brady and Robert Ollinger.

Billy the Kid is still quiet a mystery to me. I have no doubt that he killed probably ten people. One person, a bully, before the Lincoln County War and nine people during the Lincoln County War which could have included my relative Robert Beckwith. Whether he was trying to clear his name, or get the amnesty he was promised, I don't understand why he stayed around Lincoln County, New Mexico. He may have been caught up in the thrill of the chase and stayed around for the adrenalin high he got from his escapades.

I don't favor either side, or the people, in the Lincoln County War. Murphey and Doplan were using unfair business practices to exclude other people from selling products to the military, or to the Indian reservations. John Tunstall and Alexander McSween were trying to wrest away the monoply that Murphey-Dolan enjoyed and were using harsh tactics to do it. Murphey and Dolan fought back, causing Tunstall to be assassinated and the shooting war started. Any way that is my take on the Lincoln County War.

I have read and own many history books, from the early part of American History. I, at an early age, became aware that even the most respected authors, with the probable exception of Robert Utley and Leon Metz, would allow their bias' too spread through their books.

Look at George Armstrong Custer, history books either lionize him, or villify him. The point being that a person has to read many books, from many authors, to get what sociology calls a gestaldt, a felt awareness, of an event, or a personage.

Stuart Lake's book about Wyatt Earp was for many years taken as the gospel about Wyat Earp. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Like all historical figures, Wyatt Earp was only as good as he had to be.

George Washington is revered as the father of our country. Now you are finding in books, that he tried to literally be the father of our country, in his womanizing.

Thomas Jefferson, the writer of our countrys Declaration of Independence, is probably the most famous person in all American History. His letters and his witticisms, are still effecting American life. Jefferson had many children by his favorite female slave, Sally Hemmings.

Richard Nixon was one of the best presidents we have had. His feet of Clay, was allowing his campaign committee to commit criminal acts with his acquiescence, his failure to destroy his office tapes, his putting faith in unsound poeople, such as John Dean, destroyed his presidency.

All of us here, and in our countrys history, are the sum total of our experiences, both the good and the bad.

Bill

[Major 2]

“Never let the facts get in the way of a good story”

Texican Folklorist J. Frank Dobie is sometimes credited with this phrase, but this has not been verified with documentary evidence.

Delbert Trew (another Texas folklorist) has claimed: “I never let the truth stand in the way of a good story”
Delbert Trew did say " If you have already heard this story, don't stop me...I want to hear it again myself " 

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Major 2,

I would add Voltaire's 'History is the lies historians agree upon' ....

And that famous line from Liberty Valance, the newspaperman Maxwell Scott replies, "No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

[Drayton Calhoun]

"A lie spoken loud enough and often enough, becomes the truth..."

[Shotgun Franklin]

I figure that people in the Old West were no different than us. We're all just trying to live life. Some of us do more good than bad or more bad than good. We windup getting thought of as a good guy or a bad guy (or worst a nobody). George Washington liking to kiss a strange Lady on occasion. doesn't put him in the same league as someone like John Hardin who likely killed more men than he represented in court.