WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP

[GunClick Rick]

If i was to try somethin like that the first thing i would buy would be a large neon sign to put in the front yard!

DIAL 911~~~~!!!!

[Josh Dabney]

Well Pards it's a sad day in the life and death of the Belduque.  

Unfortuantely a nasty delamination was hidden in the damascus which can and sometimes does happen.  This also means that this project just came to a screeching halt while I contact the fella who made the damascus and try to get a replacement billet to start over with  

Either way we we will continue this WIP as soon as replacement damascus can be had.

Here are the pics that lead up to this grizzly discovery

Here is shot of the tools I use to sharpen a knife.  Of course I did begin by removing the bulk of meat from the edge on the belt grinder and a slack belt.  I always like to sharpen on stones because I feel the vast majority of folks out there dont have belt grinders or other fancy equipment to re-sharpen on. This way the knife is delivered to the customer with an edge that's set-up for resharpening on a stone.  Although I've been using these Lansky stones for years I never use the silly jig that comes with the kit.  For me the kit is just a way to get a variety of stones for a resonable price and I choose to sharpen by hand the good ole' fashoined way.  It does take some practice but very good results can be had.  You'll also notice that I have a temporary handle attatched to the knife to give a good grip for some hard testing.   This temp is two pieces of a grout float I cut for this purpose attatched with our trusty electrical tape  



After sharpening to an edge on the medium stone and honing the edge to a burr on the fine stone I use this simple set-up to strop the burr off leaving us with a hair shavin sharp knife over the entire length of the edge.  The strop is just a piece of leather strap tacked to the edge of a 2x4 that gets "loaded up" with white jewelers rogue.



This'n here is pretty self explainitory but it does show a good view of the straw color we achieved with our tempering cycles.



Now the actual testing of the blade is about to begin. I start off with the "brass rod test" .  After sharpening we clamp the brass in the vise and push the edge against the rod util we see it deflect over the rod.  Maintaining the downward pressure that causes the deflection we'll draw the blade over the rod for the entire length of the edge.  This test is perforemed to check the temper and be certain the edge is hardened.  Too low of a temper and the edge will be brittle and chip out.  Too high of a temper or a blade thats not fully hardened and the edge will deform and stay deformed instead of springing back to shape after the deflecting pressure is removed from the edge.



It's at this point that the delaminated weld revealed it's ungly head




This does suck !  But it does prove the benefit of testing your blades prior to finishing them up.  This would have been MUCH MUCH more tragic had I just finished up the blade, handle, silver wire, and sheath and assumed everything was ok.

Thanks again for follerin along Pards.  We will get back on track and continue on ASAP

-Josh

[Ned Buckshot]

What a drag Josh!

But as you say I guess it can happen.

Ned

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[WaddWatsonEllis]

Josh, the minus side has been dealt with far better than I could ever put into words ...

But the positive side; what is the mathematical chance of having a camera next to you in time to record a delamination?

I have a video (unfotunately, with my ex wife in it *S*) of a sunset in Hawaii ... same type of thing ... although it has my ex in it, I have a video of the green flash! What is the chances of having a camera going when the green flash occurs ... and beyond that, what is the chance of getting a recording of the green flash?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_flash

I know that it must be a terrible blow to get a knife this far along and end up with a magnificent envelope opener ....

But on the bright side, I have never seen a pic of a delamination before ... like that pic of the green flash, one just has to take the good with the bad ....

[Josh Dabney]

WWE,

We will tredge on !   

We will have to wait now and see how this plays out.  I e-mailed the fella who made the steel so we'll see what he has to say.  I did offer to send him the blade if he wants to examine it or crack it in two to get a look at the delaminated spot. I'm not sure if that would tell him anything or not but I made the offer just in case.

He may say- This happens once in awhile, I'll send ya another billet
OR- Your screwed so go jump in a lake,  LOL    Fortunately for me there's a lake across the street   

If I end keeping the blade I'll probably crack that bad spot off and turn it into a kitchen knife for my wife, Shhhh.   If needed I could also anneal (un-harden) this blade and make something much smaller out of the steel. It's actually still a decent size after removing the bad spot because it is down towards the edge so all will not be totally lost.

This is something that most makers who regularly use damascus have experienced so a fella just has to take the good with the bad and chaulk it up to experience.

In defense of the fella that made the steel, it did look fine on the outside and this problem was caused by a flaw inside the steel that he couldn't have identified.

Such is life and whatever happens we'll get some new steel and and get this show back on the road.

-Josh

[Will Ketchum]

Josh, just curious, couldn't you anneal it and then try forge welding it?  Heck if you were making it for me I'd have you grind it down past the flaw and weld a piece over the top which wouldn't me noticeable with the handle on.  I realize it's a pride in workmanship but I'm a Marine, we adapt, improvise, overcome

Will Ketchum

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Josh (and Will),

Josh and I spent a lot of time on emails before this project was even started ... probably several months of email.

If there is one thing I have learned in my 60+ years, it is to find an artisan or at least a craftsman that you trust implicitely. Then tell him what you need and give the whole project over to him ...

Telling you Josh what to do would be like you trying to tell me how to put an intravenous line in in a life raft in the middle of an ocean ... neither of us has a clue into the skills the other has.

So I guess what I am doing is trusting in you Josh and your inherent skills at metal work and more importantly, making knives.
You know what I need and I have no doubt you will go beyond my needs and present me with a knife that has things I didn't even KNOW I needed ... *S*

I know that you will not put your name on anything that you are not proud of ... and I rely on that ...

I really believe that, years from now, when I am asked to show this knife, I will get, "Oooh, an Early Josh Dabney!"

'Nuff said.

[Dave Cole]

Josh, just curious, couldn't you anneal it and then try forge welding it?  Heck if you were making it for me I'd have you grind it down past the flaw and weld a piece over the top which wouldn't me noticeable with the handle on.  I realize it's a pride in workmanship but I'm a Marine, we adapt, improvise, overcome

Will Ketchum

Josh, that really sucks, and you know I have had the same experience.Will, technically it would be possible to re-forge it, but several problems arise.One, the knife at this point, is extremely thin, making overheating a real possibility.Two, while it may be posssible to re-flux the area and re-forge, it is almost impossible to know if you succeeded in closing the ENTIRE delamination or just closed the opening resulting in an pocket within the bar.Sadly you don't find the pockets until your grinding the blade out.
Finally,like you said ,it's pride in one's workmanship.Once a delam is found in a bar of steel, the rest of the billet becomes suspect in most makers minds.Due to the extremes of making damascus, this is not a rare problem and it is much easier to replace the billet.Like Josh said, the knife can always be cut down past the delam and used for something else for HIM. Passing suspect steel onto customers is bad for business and can hurt a makers reputation if that blade were to fail.I applaude Josh for doing the right thing here.Dave

[Josh Dabney]

I have got in touch with the maker and am going to ship the blade out to him for his inspection so we'll know for sure if it'll be a replacement billet from him or damascus shopping ,LOL.

Will-  There is another problem of re-forge welding a delamanation like this.  The surfaces to be forge welded need to be free of defects.  During the process of making damascus when folding or stacking the billet the maker will grind the welding surfaces free of scale and impurities before attempting to weld them.  In this case we'ld have to break the delam off the billet and clean up both surfaces then tack them back together and flux to have a chance at a proper weld.  Of course we would then have to grind the tack off of the finished billet.

As Dave mentioned the steel is just too thin for a repair to be possible.    While making a damascus billet the billet itself will begin (for example) with dimensions of 1 1/2" x 4" x 6"    and through out the process of making the damascus this billet may be drawn out any number of times and cut up and restacked back into a billet near the original size.   Typically the actual welding part of the process takes place with a short, fat, thick billet like this.  In the final operation the billet will then be drawn out as the last step in the process but during the drawing out the forge welding is already done and the maker is basically just changing the size of the billet at that point.

As Dave also mentioned a flaw in damascus makes it "suspect".   Although the rest of the steel is most likely fine it would be VERY bad business to use this steel on a customers knife.    Knifemakers live and die by their reputation.  It can be a difficult and lenghthy process for a maker to build a reputation of quality, honesty, and integrety that gains the trust of customers and respect from his knifemaking peers and to accept any known risk to the quality of the end product is unacceptable.  At least to me 

In this case my use of the Marines motto would be -

Improvise- Crack the bad spot off the blade
Adapt- redesign a smaller knife that could be done with the steel that's left
Overcome- Finish the smaller knife design

If I end up with the knife back that is what I'll do with it     Of course I am hoping that he'll just send a new Billet

-Josh

[Shotgun Steve]

 It is a shame that the billet was bad. The knife was coming along nicely. But like
you said Josh... it happens. I know that the end product will be a treat for the eye's
and totally dependable or none of your customers would receive the blade. Thats important
to a buyer...doing business with someone you can trust. Take care and I hope your
next blade moves along with no problems.

 Shotgun Steve

[kflach]

Actually this was a very successful test because it revealed hidden flaws in the source material. That's a very good thing! inconvenient in the short term, but very good.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

It is really hard to wait for this to happen ... I keep reminding myself of how many rockets blew up on the pad in the early days of our space program.

I just keep reminding myself of what high standards Josh has, and trust in his judgement .... actually, his standards are higher than mine ... *S*

It's just in this world of immediate gratification, it just doesn't seem fair to either of us to get this close and have it go haywire;
it reminds me of the cartoon where two buzzards are on a high plateau watching a dying cowboy crawl accross the desert ... one buzzard says to the other, "Patience, hell! I'm gonna go kill something!"

I know exactly how that buzzard felt ....*L*

[GunClick Rick]

Now if ya get a nice green stone like a peridot and add to the the new knife somewhere you would have The Green Flash Beldouque

[kflach]

Josh,

If you decide to continue this on a new thread could you please note it here. I'm not a regular in this forum and I don't want to miss it if you start the thread over.

[Josh Dabney]

Kflach,

My plan is to catch up to where we are then continue this thread right here with the rest of the build.

I did mail the Blade out to the maker of the steel Moday so I should be hearing something back within a couple days.

Thanks for your interest Pard,  Josh   

[kflach]

Thanks. I figured it would be a while before you started up again. I just didn't want to miss out if you decided to start a completely new thread. This has been very enjoyable.


I grew up in Japan and I've watched a number of things on creating Katanas. However, this is my first exposure to this type of thing. It looks like something I could actually learn to do someday.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Kflach,

Actually, the idea of folding dissemilar steels together to get a mix of their virtues was not only a middle east phenomenon ... the middle easterns and Spanish (i.e Toledo steel) had their Damascus, India had its wootz steel, and the making of the best samurai swords and katanas all used that idea ...

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Damascus_steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5284064/Making-a-Japanese-Sword

[GunClick Rick]

I do not know of such things,but when i saw the picture my heart sunk clear down to my belly,OHHH NOOO!!! But i do know that you don't make no trash,and i knew that one was a gonner and you would start all over a new one.I got to hand it to ya Josh,you sure are takin it good,ida been "YAPPOFRAPPINSTICKPIGGER^@#!&())_(*)*(*&&^*&^_)(&**(&^)_(*^^~~~ and would have to take 3 days to calm down...

[Dave Cole]

Believe me Rick,Josh was more than a bit upset   . I had a similar problem with a very large piece of Damascus I bought.I had purchased a special ( meaning thicker and bigger than normal) piece for a large knife.After laying out the blade design on the steel it was on to the bandsaw to cut it.After the first long cut I saw a split down the center of the billet, and the cussing ensued  .Took e about 3 weeks to get a new piece and it was fine.Just part of the problems when dealing with metals.Dave

[Josh Dabney]

Right on Dave !

Being aware of the potential risks involved in working with damascus steel before begining eases the pain, LOL.   

I do also find that I have MUCH more patience in dealing with problems doing something I enjoy like making knives   

If I had issues with making another blade I'd be in the WRONG business Pards   

There are of course other things involved though that bring the expected onslaught of cussin to light.

Supposing a replacement billet is given I'm still out-
1. Time of lost productivity- something you never get back
2. Abrasives- Approx- a couple belts and 4 or 5 sheets of paper for the disk, probably a tune of $12 or so
3. Bandsaw blade life and drill bit wear- minimal, but still invested in this blade
4. Basically used the life of a carbide dremel burr
5. Electricity- powers my tools, HT oven, temering oven, lights in the shop, etc. etc.

Overall though I made that one an have the ability to make another,  and that's what really eases the pain 

-Josh