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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Cutting Edge (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP  (Read 37107 times)
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2010, 06:17:26 pm »

Rick,

I haven't a clue about the scallop ... it is seen on some Belduques and seems to be missing on others ...


* Fancy Belduque.jpg (73.39 KB, 800x340 - viewed 167 times.)

* Chrisknifepage Belduque.1.jpg (15.57 KB, 388x159 - viewed 108 times.)

* Knife_pic_8_belduques_3_w_damascus_72.jpg (25.97 KB, 242x439 - viewed 102 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2010, 07:08:35 pm »

Those are some nice Belduques WWE.  Take a look at the outer two of the three damascus blades.  The scallop is there, but the arc extends over most of the back of the blade
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« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2010, 07:23:46 pm »

Sir Charles,

I remain clueless ... but there is a tradition of a paisley like cutout on the back of the blades to be sure ....

But I will refer this question to Josh Dabney, 'cause I have never seen anyone address this design in any history of the Belduque I have ever read ...

And, come to think of it, if I am wearing it as a docent, I am sure I will be asked about that particular part of the design.

So Josh, whatever you say I am going to parrot to the people I will be docent to ....

BTW, several of those knives are off people's web pages ... the one with the blue-ish sheath with heart is from Chris's Knives ( http://www.whirlwindtraders.com/chrisknifepage.html ), and the group of three knives if from the Delaronde webpage ( http://www.delarondeforge.com/Knives.htm )
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2010, 09:57:41 pm »

Wadd;  I think you know this site quite well;

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

About the middle, under the discussion of the PUNALE, this author also makes the connection of these Southern European/Latin American knives may have a common heritage with the Searles style of bowie.

I don`t know the origin of the scallop, but assume that "form follows function".  An edged weapon used for stabbing requires protection for the users hand. A guard or basket is sometimes used, but these weapons merely dropped the blade and profiled the rear of the blade to protect the hand.  Some of the Argentine knives, whether Facon, Punale, or Criollo, have the scallop, and some don't.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
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without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
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« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2010, 10:45:42 pm »

Maybe they are for pulling gold off the tooth of the deceased Lips Sealed
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« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2010, 11:14:06 pm »

Sir Charles,

I reread the article ... what an excellent article!

I once emailed Mr Domenech out of the blue ... explained my interest in Belduques.

His replay was kind, well thought out and almost courtly.

But I did find the comment I think you were talking about ... it concerns the knives shown below ... and it reads:

Photo 18. Four Argentine puñales, mounted in silver, showing their square bolsters or botón cuadrado (rectangular in overall cross section, but with facets replacing what would have been sharp edges, so actually octagonal). Notice also the semicircular notch on the ricasso, used to rest the index finger and prevent the hand from slipping towards the edge when stabbing.


* Punal Criollo botons.1.jpg (102.24 KB, 675x510 - viewed 93 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2010, 11:44:48 pm »

Howdy Pards,

I'm sure no history expert so read this fer what it is, hearsay,opinion, and in general a regurgitation of things I've read other places.

The Scalloped part your taking about is commonly refer to as a "Spanish notch"  so it would seem to make sense that many knives of Spanish heritage and/or inspiration may have a notch included at the will of either the maker or customer.

I have read folks claiming that the notch is a "tactical" feature included for the purpose of catching the blade of an opponent which would protect your own hand and provide an oppertunity to twist the opponents blade out of his hand.

My take is that it's purely a decorative thing included to add some interest and class to what is basically a big ole plain kitchen knife.  Embelishment of tools and weapons has been around as long as the tools themselves to add value, distinction, and personalization to what may otherwise be a non-descript blade.

I also wouldn't dismiss the chance that once upon a time there was a knife fight where this type of thing actually did happen with a Spanish notch saving the day by catching the opponents blade.  It certainly would have become a legendary in short order.

Again this info is just my opinion and relies on NO quotable facts that could be verified.

Good discussion Pards !   Josh   Grin
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« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2010, 11:57:11 pm »

The scallop or Spanish Notch as most commonly known has been discussed ad infintum elsewhere with all kind so "ideas" behind (some quite far-fetched) but historical it's nothing more than a relic of a past design and has very little practical value - the past design is the sword breaker left hand knives used in the Spanish style of fencing.......

The curved dropped edge is a more or less "modern" design (although the Searles type is an early version, but still has an added guard) and is found most often on knives made in South America i.e Argentina or Brazil. FWIW - on another forum there is a section for makers form these areas - an interesting read for those who read mostly Portugee and/or Espanol..........

All of these knives by whatever name - French chef's, Belduques, punales, Mediterranean dirks, etc, have a common ancestor - the late medieval style using kitchen/knife, and in the case of the Belduque they were adapted for the use of piercing armor (chain mail at least), thus the thick heavy blades commonly seen and the sharpened back or false edge...............
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« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2010, 12:13:30 am »

Thank you Josh and Chuck,

I knew if I hemmed and hawed enough someone with both the knowledge and the background would come forth with an educated explanation.

Regardless of what it does or was designed to do, it shore looks purty.

And in the end, that may have been all that mattered ...
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2010, 12:22:18 am »

Glad to be of help Skip - Belduques and their variants are my favorite knives. - my number one, everyday  using knife is an 8" old "Old Henry" chef's knife that I found buried in a garden over 30 years ago and cleaned up ...........

Josh - give me a call sometime - latr afternoon or early evening my time (Mtn time - 2 hours difference) is best and we'll talk period knives and sheaths..........
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« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2010, 06:30:13 pm »

Excellent thread!  Too bad about the weld failure.  Hope part deux works out better for you.  I wish I had a dime for every mistake or metal flaw I've had while making knives.  I'd have a bucket-load of dimes!  My little six-year old helped me reclaim this little skinner after I found a crack in the edge while heat treating.  I threw the blade in my "mistake box" and continued to march.  Several months later my daughter was sitting next to me patiently watching while I worked on a knife.  She asked if I had a knife she could make.  Well I dug through my box and pulled out the defunct skinner.  I showed her the flaw and gave her a sharpie marker and said she could re-design it.  Here is the end result.  Of course Daddy did the more dangerous stuff but I kinda like her style
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« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2010, 07:57:48 pm »

Messerist,

Thank you for the sentiment ... I have every faith in Josh and his skills and workmanship ... even more faith in his integrity ...

But I was talking to the man who is making the Botas that the Belduque will sit in ... and he is backed up and going to be late ...

So even if I had it now I would have no place to wear it ...

And your daughter bringing new life to a blade ... that is so special ... long after other knives and your daughter has gone the ways of a later time, you will always have that knife to keep her near ....
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2010, 07:36:23 pm »

Wanted to bump this back up and let yall know that I'll be resuming this WIP right where we left off hopfully within the next few days   Grin

I have had my hands full time wise with my daughter being born 8 weeks early and remaining in the hospital.   I will assure yall that although tiny she's a tough one and is doing wonderfully .  She's very healthy ESPECIALLY for a premie her age and continues to make progress every day  Grin   She is done with pretty much everything she began with, CPAP, IV, Antibiotics and the like and is doing great and begining to gain weight.  Health wise she's just waiting to gain some weight and maintain her temp and she'll be comming home.  It could be awhile yet but we're in very high spirits that she is so healthy and we're left with no worries about her health   Grin




WWE has been EXTREMELY understanding of the delay and I can't thank him enough for that !!!!!!

Hopefully once rolling again we'll make it through without problems and get the Re-Belduque finished up and in the hands of WWE.   Who knows we just may have a few tricks up our sleeve to make it worth the wait   Grin

-Josh
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« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2010, 07:49:00 pm »

What a little darlin'.  Lotsa hair.  You didn't tell us her name. 

Tell Wadd he can practice his patience a bit longer.  After me, Wadd:  "Ommmmm, Ommmmm,Ommmmm."  Roll Eyes )
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« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2010, 08:21:07 pm »

Forty Rod,

I have a 'little' (i.e. 5 1/2" blade) trade Belduque that will do me just fine ... I was out in all my stuff with the Old Sac Historical Society for the St. Patties Day parade ... in which, all the bands played English and Scottish tunes ... If I heard 'Cock of the North" one more time .... and with Scottish bagpipes no less!

But to get back to the point, every adult who acknowledged me to their child would say, 'look here's a cowboy!' LOL
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403
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« Reply #90 on: March 16, 2010, 08:38:51 pm »

Josh, Forty Rod et al,

I waxed really poetic and lost the whole reply ... be happy I did; it was pretty soporific (sp?) ...

But the gist of it was that the knife will wait ... and I would rather wait than have you make decisions that are against your best wishes just to keep up the deadline ...

Just remember that you are right where the Big Guy wants you to be ... and treasure these moments while your daughter still lets you hug her ... for, as so many in here will back me up with, it will be like a blink of the eye and she will be waltzing out the door on her way to her first prom ....


* rockaffirstprom1.jpg (22.29 KB, 382x390 - viewed 95 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2010, 10:47:49 pm »

Wanted to bump this back up and let yall know that I'll be resuming this WIP right where we left off hopfully within the next few days   Grin

I have had my hands full time wise with my daughter being born 8 weeks early and remaining in the hospital.   I will assure yall that although tiny she's a tough one and is doing wonderfully .  She's very healthy ESPECIALLY for a premie her age and continues to make progress every day  Grin   She is done with pretty much everything she began with, CPAP, IV, Antibiotics and the like and is doing great and begining to gain weight.  Health wise she's just waiting to gain some weight and maintain her temp and she'll be comming home.  It could be awhile yet but we're in very high spirits that she is so healthy and we're left with no worries about her health   Grin




WWE has been EXTREMELY understanding of the delay and I can't thank him enough for that !!!!!!

Hopefully once rolling again we'll make it through without problems and get the Re-Belduque finished up and in the hands of WWE.   Who knows we just may have a few tricks up our sleeve to make it worth the wait   Grin

-Josh



Hey Josh,do we get a WIP on that one Grin Your eyes tell the story pard,congratulations toYOU!!! They will break your heart when they get married and move to Texas Cry
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« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2010, 11:17:53 pm »

Good point Forty,  LOL.   Our little Sweetie's name is Danielle  Grin

GCR,  We could do a WIP on this one but the C-section pics may not be for the squeemish,  LOL  Wink Grin 

-Josh
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« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2010, 09:25:51 am »

My beloved daughter is now 15. She's provided me with some of the happiest moments of my life. Congrats Josh! I'm glad to hear everything is coming along and I wish you all the best!

p.s. This weekend she's supposed to go with me to her very first NCOWS shooting Match. She confirmed that last night and to be honest I was so excited that it took me a long time to get to sleep.
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« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2010, 09:30:25 am »

Kflach,

You must have a very special relationship with your daughter ... most fifteen year olds want to deny that their parents exist ... mine used to want me to drop them off two blocks before the school so that they would not have to be seen with their 'Dad' .... sigh
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403
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« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2010, 10:06:58 am »

Good point Forty,  LOL.   Our little Sweetie's name is Danielle  Grin
-Josh

One of my favorite names.  She can keep it. (As if I had a say in the matter.)

My daughter will be 42 in May and it seems like she finally found a guy she wants to spend her life with.  We'll see.
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« Reply #96 on: March 17, 2010, 12:12:58 pm »

WWE,

I'm very fortunate. I've invested a lot of time in my daughter and so far it's paid off. My wife carried my daughter for nine months, but I carried her more than that once she was born (and she was much heavier). Believe it or not I've said that in front of my wife several times and haven't got a word of argument out of her.

She gives me a hard time now and then, but she's supposed to - and occasionally I give it back! [Come to think of it, I wrote that sentence about my daughter, but it covers my wife, too. <grin>]

It's also nice to know that even if they're not as close to you when they're in their teens, they often realize you might not have been so stupid after all once they hit their early twenties.
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« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2010, 01:03:36 pm »

 She's beautiful Josh!! I am very glad to hear she is doing so well.
I will keep her in my prayers. Take care.

 Steve
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« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2010, 03:51:24 pm »

When my wife was in labor she invented a new cuss word.WYYOUFLUBBERHEADEDSOBI'MGONNAKILLYAASSOONASIGETOUTTAHERE. The nurse actually bought me a beer,told me to go drink it and come back in say, an hour or so and i have a baby and a passed out wife Grin

She tries to poison me once a week now,been goin on for 32 years last count,but that's why i always have a dog Grin
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« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2010, 06:14:24 pm »

Kflach,

I lost my first son at a year and a half, and my second son was part of a package deal involving wife #2 ... just kidding ... but actually, all that is true, but I do love my second son.

I understand that he felt he had to be loyal to his biological Mom, but it does not make the house any less quiet ....

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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403
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