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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Cutting Edge (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP  (Read 38057 times)
kflach
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2010, 10:54:36 am »

Actually this was a very successful test because it revealed hidden flaws in the source material. That's a very good thing! inconvenient in the short term, but very good.
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2010, 11:11:47 am »

It is really hard to wait for this to happen ... I keep reminding myself of how many rockets blew up on the pad in the early days of our space program.

I just keep reminding myself of what high standards Josh has, and trust in his judgement .... actually, his standards are higher than mine ... *S*

It's just in this world of immediate gratification, it just doesn't seem fair to either of us to get this close and have it go haywire;
it reminds me of the cartoon where two buzzards are on a high plateau watching a dying cowboy crawl accross the desert ... one buzzard says to the other, "Patience, hell! I'm gonna go kill something!"

I know exactly how that buzzard felt ....*L*
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2010, 02:32:23 pm »

Now if ya get a nice green stone like a peridot and add to the the new knife somewhere you would have The Green Flash Beldouque Smiley

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kflach
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« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2010, 04:18:04 pm »

Josh,

If you decide to continue this on a new thread could you please note it here. I'm not a regular in this forum and I don't want to miss it if you start the thread over.
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2010, 04:57:14 pm »

Kflach,

My plan is to catch up to where we are then continue this thread right here with the rest of the build.

I did mail the Blade out to the maker of the steel Moday so I should be hearing something back within a couple days.

Thanks for your interest Pard,  Josh   Grin
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kflach
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« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2010, 05:25:45 pm »

Thanks. I figured it would be a while before you started up again. I just didn't want to miss out if you decided to start a completely new thread. This has been very enjoyable.


I grew up in Japan and I've watched a number of things on creating Katanas. However, this is my first exposure to this type of thing. It looks like something I could actually learn to do someday.
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2010, 06:32:46 pm »

Kflach,

Actually, the idea of folding dissemilar steels together to get a mix of their virtues was not only a middle east phenomenon ... the middle easterns and Spanish (i.e Toledo steel) had their Damascus, India had its wootz steel, and the making of the best samurai swords and katanas all used that idea ...

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Damascus_steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5284064/Making-a-Japanese-Sword
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2010, 02:32:44 am »

I do not know of such things,but when i saw the picture my heart sunk clear down to my belly,OHHH NOOO!!! But i do know that you don't make no trash,and i knew that one was a gonner and you would start all over a new one.I got to hand it to ya Josh,you sure are takin it good,ida been "YAPPOFRAPPINSTICKPIGGER^@#!&())_(*)*(*&&^*&^_)(&**(&^)_(*^^~~~ and would have to take 3 days to calm down... Shocked Embarrassed Undecided Lips Sealed Angry
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« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2010, 09:19:59 am »

Believe me Rick,Josh was more than a bit upset   Shocked. I had a similar problem with a very large piece of Damascus I bought.I had purchased a special ( meaning thicker and bigger than normal) piece for a large knife.After laying out the blade design on the steel it was on to the bandsaw to cut it.After the first long cut I saw a split down the center of the billet, and the cussing ensued  Grin.Took e about 3 weeks to get a new piece and it was fine.Just part of the problems when dealing with metals.Dave Smiley
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2010, 10:23:38 am »

Right on Dave !

Being aware of the potential risks involved in working with damascus steel before begining eases the pain, LOL.   

I do also find that I have MUCH more patience in dealing with problems doing something I enjoy like making knives  Grin 

If I had issues with making another blade I'd be in the WRONG business Pards   Wink

There are of course other things involved though that bring the expected onslaught of cussin to light.

Supposing a replacement billet is given I'm still out-
1. Time of lost productivity- something you never get back
2. Abrasives- Approx- a couple belts and 4 or 5 sheets of paper for the disk, probably a tune of $12 or so
3. Bandsaw blade life and drill bit wear- minimal, but still invested in this blade
4. Basically used the life of a carbide dremel burr
5. Electricity- powers my tools, HT oven, temering oven, lights in the shop, etc. etc.

Overall though I made that one an have the ability to make another,  and that's what really eases the pain  Grin

-Josh
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2010, 03:29:59 pm »

Damascus UPDATE:

I just got off the phone with the maker of the damascus and he is going to provide a replacement billet !!!   HOORAY !!!

As suspected there was a flaw in the weld that caused the delamination so another billet will be made tomorrow and shipped out asap. 

Also in credit to the fellow is that he's also going to return the original blade that can be put to use in the making of a smaller blade. 

As it stands we'll be back on track before you know it and having the original steel to sorta compensate me for work that went into the original blade is unexpected but certainly welcomed.  Sometimes thing seem to just workout for the best all on their own  Grin

-Josh
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2010, 05:54:06 pm »

Huzzah and HUZZAH!

When one thinks of all the possible outcomes that might have happened, it is looking like you got the best result that could have occurred (other than the knife not having the void in the first place ...).

And when you are carving your next roast with your Damascene carving knife, just think of the anecdote you can weave ... 'As a matter of fact, this here knife started it's life to be entirely different ...."

I have been praying, keeping my fingers crossed , petting my rabbit's foot and saying novenas (and I am not even that religion! *S*) that this was what would happen ... I am so pleased for you!

And will you do a WIP on the 'mistake' as well? I know I would love to see it take life too!

P.S. the pic below is not really a Belduque, but a South American cousin called the Punal Croillo ... but it is so pretty that I just wanted to show it....


* Punal Criollo.1.jpg (8.89 KB, 204x153 - viewed 134 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2010, 06:55:25 pm »

When you say weld,is that a hammered fold?How to you mean the term weld?Huh Embarrassed I never knew that damasscuss had so much to think about,me being the layman i just see purty.. Smiley
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2010, 08:11:34 pm »

Rick,

Although this article has the faults found in much of wikipedia, the information in it seems to be correct and give a good overview of the Damascening process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

Probably fairly rare in the American West, I am guessing that a trade Damascene Belduque could probably have found its way into the hands of a Californio ... probably. There were good trading connections through Mexico and many of the ports of South America, eventually connecting to Spanish traders.

Besides, I have always wanted a big Damascene knife ... I have a wootz steel Indian made Bowie that Chuck Burrows was kind enough to 'antique' for me (again, the chance of owning a Damascene Bowie in the 1870s would be extremely low ... I just wanted one ...)

But when it came up that I would need an Hispanic Belduque for my Californio outfit, I thought: 1.) about how most of the finished products for Californios were imported, and 2.) That a Californio would try to only have the best in fittings and horse, and  3.) That there were established trade routes from Californio all the way back to Spain ....

Hence the Damascene Belduque (and the fact that I am not unlike the Californios in that I would rather get the best and live on beans to afford it ... {and I wonder why I am divorced ... *S*}).


* DamaszenerKlinge.jpg (16.32 KB, 220x498 - viewed 103 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2010, 10:53:03 pm »

 Cheesy Two good lessons Cheesy Cheesy I know what ya mean though,i like them Bush beans myself,served with saltines Wink
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« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2010, 01:07:31 am »

GCR,

We sure are taliking about a forge weld that is hammered (or pressed with a hydraulic press) together. 

Here's a basic example of how a billet is made.  The billet will start as a stack of 2 or more alternating layers of steel.  Say 3 layers of 5160 and 2 layers of 15N20.  These layers will be cut from 2" x 1/4" x 5" flat bar giving a stack thats 2" x 1 1/4" x 5". 

Now the stack will be stitched up the corners with a Mig or Arc weld to hold the stack together while in the forge getting to welding heat.  Commonly a rebar handle will also be welded on.           

Now the billet will go into the forge. The billet also has to be fluxed while comming up to heat. Flux is a powder thats sprinkled on the hot billet that turns to liquid when it hits the steel.  The purpose of this is to keep oxygen from comming into contact with the inside and creating scale.  If scale forms on the inside of the billet it will end being a flaw like an inclusion.

When up to welding heat (2300 degrees) the billet  is hammered with a power hammer or squeezed in a press to make the billet weld.  Each place the two steels meet each other is a weld so in our 5 layer billet we start with 4 forge welded surfaces.

Now the forge welded billet is drawn out. for our example lets say that it's drawn out to a 1" square 12 inches long.  We still have 5 flat layers  in our billet.

Now the billet will be cut in half and re-stacked and begin the initial process again. Now we'll have a 10 layer billet.  Then 20, 40, 80, 160, etc until the desired layer count is reached. 

There are many different ways to manipulate the steel to create the pattern at this point. 

Lets say we do a twist pattern.  The billet will now be drawn out to a one inch bar and actually twisted up  then hammered flat.  Now we have a twist pattern billet. 

Now there are many variations of the twist pattern.  One popular thing is to make a multi-bar twist pattern.  To do this instead of flattening after twisting we would have drawn our twisted billet out to say a 1/2" square bar then cut into 4 pieces ansd stacked and welded the finall billet with the twists arranged in opposing patterns.

Remember that each time a forge weld is made the sufaces to be welded have to be free of scale thats created in the forge.  Also the Mig or Arc welds must be ground away to prevent flaws or a spot of low carbon steel in the billet.

This gives a general idea of how damascus is made.

-Josh

                   
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2010, 07:19:43 pm »

Josh,

I bow to your explanation ... far better than I could aspire to ....

The main place that Damascus steel might have been seen in the West was probably in fine English Shotguns.

A Damascene barrel was seen as the ultimate barrel by many fine English shotgun makers ....

http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/1880grades.html


* English Damascus Barrelled Shotgun.jpg (67.05 KB, 997x429 - viewed 76 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2010, 11:09:15 pm »

I have been duley,dooley,doolly---thourally --? I am now smarter than i was,thanks Josh.. Smiley Smiley

I wished that show was still on tv where it was about forges and steel making,i loved that program,it had  different smiths on it.
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2010, 11:45:48 pm »

I have been duley,dooley,doolly---thourally --? I am now smarter than i was,thanks Josh.. Smiley Smiley

You want to join me in a vaudeville act?
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« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2010, 08:34:04 am »

I have been following these Belduque threads for a month, now. I'm really taken by this knife. Josh's representation is going to be a masterpiece, for sure.
One reason I like it because it's different from the frontier bowie style, which is so common with reenactors and CAS. You can bet I'll be saving up for a Belduque!
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« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2010, 02:18:22 pm »

You want to join me in a vaudeville act?

Dooley livin in a holler,Duley tryin ta make a dollar,gonna marry her someday~~~~~ Grin Tell "em" Goober says hey~tsk'~
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« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2010, 06:47:11 pm »

If you compare a Belduque or a Criollo to a SEARLES Bowie I think there is more than a coincidental similarity.

Especially if you look at that little scallop between the guard and the blade on the Searles. What we have here is whether there is a guard - or not!

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,30761.0.html
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« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2010, 02:01:53 am »

There does seem to be a common ancestor for the Bowie and the 'Creole' (Criollo) knives. And it was the Belduque/Criollo that started making both the top and blade side of knives into cutting surfaces ... as does the Bowie ...

But it is not my wisdom or knowledge that can cause that missing link knife to be found ....
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2010, 02:43:38 pm »

What is the scallop for?Just identifying mark or some use?
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« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2010, 04:58:24 pm »

My theory is that it is meant to be kind to the second phalanges of your knife hand.  Then it becomes stylized.
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THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
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