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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Cutting Edge (Moderator: St. George)  |  Topic: WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: WaddWatsonEllis Belduque WIP  (Read 36292 times)
Josh Dabney
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« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2010, 11:50:23 pm »

Well Pards...

We're approaching the point where we left off with the WIP .  Not quite there yet but getting close.

I did approach things a little differently on this blade due to having some issues drilling the pin holes.  Typically when you buy Damascus it comes from the maker fully annealed (soft) with the grain set up for hardening.  After breaking 3 or 4   1/16" bits and burning up a bunch of 1/8" bits working on the pin holes I decided NOT to take this blade as far before HT-ing the blade.   Due to the steel not being fully annealed I suspect that the maker did NOT refine the grain properly after forging the steel so I decided to heat cycle the blade 3 times to refine the grain prior to quenching.  To refine the grain you have to heat the steel to increasingly less temps from the first heat above critical ,1550 degrees, then 1475, then 1400.  This refines the grain and sets the steel up for hardening but also causes scale that cannot be prevented and needs to be ground away after HT.

Heres a couple pics to wet yall's whistle while waiting for us to break into new ground.

Here she is cooking in the oven during the grain refinement process.



Here it is cooling down



Here she is after the quench



Here is a pic of the new quench tank I had to get to fit this blade



Oh did I mention that this Billet is a little wider allowing a little longer blade than the original blade.  Sure hope WWE likes that Idea Grin

-Josh



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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2010, 12:19:27 am »

Josh,

What adult male does not fantasize about a bigger and longer .... knife!

I just measured my lower leg ... from just below the knee at the smallest circumference to the ankle it is just about 12" ... so as long as the blade is under 12" I think we are pretty jake ...

I had written alot more ... but the website kept telling me I had already posted it and I had to cancel the whole thing and start over ...

Oh yeah, I was saying the with the newer/bigger/larger quench tank you are ready when you get all those orders for those South American sword/knives ....

*S*



* Punal Criollo.1.jpg (8.89 KB, 204x153 - viewed 80 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2010, 12:40:49 am »

WWE,

We had talked about a little bigger blade than the first one so I wasn't too concerned about asking you first.  We actually gained 1 1/4" of length so we're at 10 3/8" from the front of the bolster to the tip  Grin

You'll definately be able to use the line "That aint a knife......  THIS is a knife"

I'm  already liking the profile of the new Belduque much better than the old one.   Sometimes things just work out fer the better huh  Wink

-Josh
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2010, 01:21:12 am »

Josh,

I think that the 10+ inches is much closer to the original size of a Belduque .... and any more and the tip of the sheath would be dragging the ground ... LOL.

I'm trying to be so good ... no, I won't go into things like knife envy, knife versus feet size or any of the other jokes.

But the knife looks fantastic ... I printed up the pages to show my friends at the soup kitchen I volunteer with ... surprisingly, one of the people who is interested in this is the head chef ... especially since the origin of the knife was common Belgian/French kitchen knives ...

I have a couple of other ideas, but I will send you a PM about them tomorrow ... as the Brits say, I'm all fagged out tonight. Not up to another email ...

Especially since it is 2330 here and 0530 comes all too soon!

TTFN for tonight ....

Or hang on for that 0200 feeding ....

Best wishes either way ....
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Forty Rod
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« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2010, 10:33:26 am »


What adult male does not fantasize about a bigger and longer .... knife!


Men brag that everything they have is bigger...'cept their cell phones.
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« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2010, 02:28:54 pm »

I keep trippin over mine Angry
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« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2010, 04:00:19 pm »

Yeah right, shorthorn.   Grin
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2010, 04:14:11 pm »

Before I go any further with the Belduque it's durn sure I'm gonna sharpen her up and give her a little test run.  I thinnied out the edge enough to sharpen then cut the edge in with a 220 grit belt then hand sharpened on the stone and stropped.



Her she is stuck in a 2x4.  I stabbed her in and bent over to the side or twisted  just to check out the stability of the tip.  Although it's still pretty thick and strong I would still expect the very tip to break off if large grain or otherwise poor heat treat were present.



A blade this size will be asked to do many chores so we'd better besure she's capable of chopping wood without edge damage.   I chopped this piece of 2x4 as hard as I could at least 40 or 50 times then proceeded to split the wood up across the grain using another 2x4 as a hammer.  Not recommended of course  Grin  but if there is going to be any problem at all with the blade I want it to happen right now instead of in the hands of WWE  Wink



The required POST testing shave  Cool



Now that I've begun grinding the finished bevels and are getting fairly close it's time to answer the question that I'm sure is on everyones mind...  Whats the Damascus look like Huh?  Keep in mind this is at 120 grit and an etch of maybe 20 seconds which is really just so we can see the pattern.  It'll look much better as a finished product









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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2010, 05:07:30 pm »

Josh,

That is just plain gorgous already!

I am hoping you are thinking about using this for a webpage ... it (both the pics and the commentary) validates just how much work, time experience and knowledge go into making a blade ...so that if anyone has a question about value-for-price, this would say it all!

I just hope the botas appear in time to show this beauty off!
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2010, 08:36:57 am »

Josh,

I was looking at the pics this morning before shoving off to my duties, and I was struck by one very special thing ... probably something that was pretty obvious to most, but certainly caught my eye this morning.

I was looking at your kiln, and thought to myself that the investment in that kiln, should I want to attempt to make this knife myself, would have probaby cost more than the cost of this knife ... and I started looking around at the background of your shop and realized that I do not have most of the tools that you have there ... I always thought that someone with basic woodworking tools could manage to make a blade.

They probably could too, but without things like long handled pliers and such, the Emergency Room bills would probably be more than having the knife made by an artist such as yourself ... and I can just see me telling my spouse (probably why I don't have one). "Honey, I am just going to use your oven today to heat this billet up to 1500 degrees  ... don't mind the smell; it will leave the house in two or three days ...'  come to think of it, it is picadillos of exactly this type that probably drove my wives away ....*S*

So as I say my prayers this morning, I will thank the Big Guy that I have you, your skills, (and lastly your shop) in my circle.

Kudos!


* anvil and forge.jpg (4.45 KB, 145x108 - viewed 281 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2010, 09:36:15 am »

Josh,

I am hoping you are thinking about using this for a webpage ... it (both the pics and the commentary) validates just how much work, time experience and knowledge go into making a blade ...so that if anyone has a question about value-for-price, this would say it all!

WWE,you probably forgot a few adjectives like passion, commitment and just being nuts Grin.Which is why Josh and I became fast friends.After doing this so many years I have had quite a few guys come through thinking they would like to try thier hands a knifemaking.Josh is the only one of the bunch that ever showed immeadiate promise of doing so.He came in with a very good skill level, so I didn't have to teach very much at all, mostly just giving those tips and tricks only learned by experience.He truly is like a sponge, and just soaks in the info.He is right know far ahead of alot of newer makers and I really think he'll go far.
As for tools, I have seen many nice knives made without that luxury, done with mostly hacksaws and files, but like most crafts the tools make life and production go much easier.Knifemakers usually find as they get more experienced need to get more and more tools to keep production flowing.Multiple grinders and drill presses are the norm, bandsaws, forges and heat-treating equipment,leatherworking tools ,you get the picture.So not much spending money to be made, as it mostly goes back into the shop and supplies.Dave Smiley
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2010, 09:58:20 am »

Dave,

So understood about the tools: I am kind of a wood butcher ... below is my shop and the router table cabinet I built in it ... but I always had this kind of juvenile Mickey Rooney/Andy Hardy (am I showing my age or what? *S*) thought that I could just use my woodworking tools and do a knife ... and I am beginning to see just how wrong I was/am!

As far as Josh, I think he is another knifemaking icon in the flesh.

Years from now, I think that people are going to look at the Belduque and mutter, 'Wow, an early Josh Dabney!'

But now I have to share him with sweet Danielle, who has to be taking up a lot of his time ... and well she should!


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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2010, 09:23:20 pm »

For those who may wish to make their own knife with what they have available or VERY limited tool purchases,  it CAN be done.  This is of course dependant on a couple of factors.  Do you have access to Oxy-assetaline (sp)  torches or willing to send out for HT.   A very fine servicable knife can be made with these tools and the addition of a 4 1/2" angle grinder and a couple different wheels.  Of course a hand drill, center punch, files, and sandpaper will come in handy  Grin

Steel choice needs to be matched to heat treating capabilities but all else is just get a bunch of raw materials and remove everything that doesen't look like a knife  Grin

As Dave mentioned $$$$$$ in tools is the norm for knifemakers and I'm certainly no exception, LOL.   However many many makers got their start with very meager equipment myself included.  I went with the KIT blade option for my first few and got hooked and it's just snowballed from there.  Being that I REALLY wanted to make my own blades from scratch the tools are a natural choice so being able to get a fair dollar for your work is important just to keep the shop going.  Kit blades are a great way to get started and make knives for yourself and a real sense of accomplishment can be had,  ESPECIALLY if it's his/her first one.


-Josh  Grin
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #113 on: March 25, 2010, 09:59:52 pm »

Ok Pards,  here we go with the next steps in this dance with Belduque  Grin

This first pic shows how I worked down the profile of the handle to match the shape of the bolsters.  It's probably a good time to mention this point.  Because this knife is damascus and a full tang evrything must fit precisely together like a puzzle before anything is actually assembled.  The bolsters and scales must be gound smooth to the profile of the knife then everything taken apart to do the final etch on the steel.  Then everything has to be re-assembled permanently in exactly the same position.  This is much more difficult than epoxying everything together then grinding to the final shape.



I didn't get a bunch of pictures of the finish grinding on the blade.  This one shows how I've got the bevels gound up to full height and how much work still needs to be done on the plunge area.



During the process of grinding I again gave the blade a quick etch so now we're getting a close idea of how the steel is going to look finished




No matter how flat you think you've got your grind on the grinder a trip to the disc grinder will reveal the areas that need attension and some time spent with the disc will give a true flat on the blade.  This pic shows clearly how much of the edge is convexed



I've really been working on improving my machine finish to save time hand sanding which can at times be quite extensive.  This shot gives a good idea of the finish quality before hand finishing.



I'm at the point now that the rest of the work on the blade will be done by hand so I'm moving on to working on the scales before putting the final finish on the blade.  Here is my block of curly maple that will be split into scales for the Belduque. You can see I cut it to size leaving a bit extra around the perimeter, traced the handle on the wood and drilled 2 allignment holes outside the handle.  The allignment pins will ensure  the scales stay bookmatched.



Here you can see that I've marked the side of the scales that will go against the tang with an X and labeled one side 1 and the other 2.  Once the scales are split in two it's EXTREMELY easy to get them spun around so this will keep us straight.



And finally we rip the block down the middle on the bandsaw to get our scales.




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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #114 on: March 25, 2010, 10:14:36 pm »

It feels real good to be in NEW territory with WWE's Belduque Pards  Grin

The bad news is that I've got a Ton of stuff going on the next couple of days and probably won't find time to work on'er.

The good news is that our tiny Danielle has continued to do wonderfully and is comming home Saturday evening  Grin   This is great news on all accounts as we'll have our girl home with us, won't be making multiple trips to the hospital everyday, will get to see her all the time, and having her home should at least double my amount of work time,  which is a good thing !

Once settleted in we should be seeing progress every day to completion   Grin

Thanks to everyone following along and a special thanks to WWE for his continued patience and understanding  Cheesy

-Josh
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2010, 12:04:57 am »

Josh,

There is no problem with patience ... I am reading Richard J Foster's book on the 'Celebration of Disciplines' with a Study group.

In it, the book talks about the Discipline of Study ... and one of the parts of study is comprehension and reflection.

Michelangelo said that he could see the statue inside of the hunk of marble ... the rest of the work was just chiseling down to it ...

That is what Danielle is doing for you. For while the rigors of your mind are working out the logistics of bringing young Danielle home, the subconscious is 'seeing', comprehending what must be done next, and 'reflecting' how you are going to do it to please your sense of rightness.

So hug your little one for me; hell, hug her Mom for me too! Tell her how much I appreciate her sharing her husband's energy and thoughts with me ...

Best wishes!


* Baby's First Ride.jpg (3.95 KB, 140x93 - viewed 342 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2010, 06:33:22 pm »

I noticed this version doesn't have that Spanish notch (I think that's what ya'll called that little indention near the bottom of the blade close to the grip) that the original version had. What factor(s) led you to decide not to do it?
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GunClick Rick
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« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2010, 07:39:42 pm »

Whew what a process~~`LOOK OUT JOSH! THERES A HAIRY FACED LONGTOED BOOGEY VARMIT IN YOUR SHOP!!!
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« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2010, 11:31:02 pm »

Kflach, 

I apologize for the delayed response Pard,  been a bit hectic around here the last few days  Grin

In all honesty I just plain forgot to carve the spanish notch in before heat treating the blade  Embarrassed    Carving the notch in may still be a possibility as the carbide burrs used for the caving should still cut the blade even though it is hardened.  I am a bit worried that it will increase the difficulty of getting a good outcome but I do have another blade to experiment on before attempting it on this blade  Wink

As an alternative if deciding it's not worth the risk I'll probably fancy up that area with file work done with diamond files which will cut the hardened blade no problem.

GCR,

That there varmit is one monkey toed ugly son-of-a-buck ain't he,  LOL   Grin

-Josh
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« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2010, 12:20:28 am »

Josh,

That is the joy of working with a trustful man. I can just ask you to do what you think is best and leave the decision to you ...

I am reminded of a very early Cary Grant movie called "Mr Blanding Buys His Dream House'.

In it, Mr Blanding is asked if he wants dados in all the joists.

Not knowing what a dado was (or is), he asks, "Does it cost more money?"

"Yes it does!" Replies the foreman ...

"Then no, I do not want dados..." Says Blanding/Cary Grant.

To which the foreman yells to men working upstairs, "Hey you guys; tear out all the joists with dados!" Followed by the sound of ten or twenty joist falling to the next level.

The segway is that me telling you what to do would be like Cary Grant's character telling the foreman how to do his job.

I know you are going to do the right thing with it: not only that, but I would not even know what a 'Spanish Notch" was except for this site, and the wisdom of  Chuck Burrows and yourself ...

P.S. How is Dani taking to her new surroundings?

P.S.S. Here is the Wikipedia for the movie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Blandings_Builds_His_Dream_House
 



* Mr Blandings Buys His Dream House.jpg (7.34 KB, 99x140 - viewed 281 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #120 on: March 31, 2010, 12:20:15 pm »

Howdy Pards,

Finally got a little sleep and some time in the shop with Belduque  Grin

As I mentioned previously,  I REALLY want to include the spanish notch on this knife but unfortunately the carbide burr would barely touch the hardened blade  Sad    As we know though,  Necesity is the Mudder of invention and sometimes it pays to experiment a little.  Since the carbide didn't do the trick I decided to try out some diamond burrs in the dremel to do the carving and it is working as good or better than the carbide on the un-hardened blade. 

Here is the proposed area of steel to be removed.



The next progression of pics give an idea of the different bits used to begin with the largest size for bulk removal and getting progressivly smaller.  The steel doesn't wear or dull the diamond abrasive but it will shear the abrasive off the burr so they do still wear out and lose their cutting ability.  The smallest of the burrs did wear out relatively quickly so I wasn't able to finish the notch but I don't forsee it being a problem once I get to the store to get some more burrs.  As of now though I'll be going back to working on the handle for the time being.






Danielle is home and doing wonderfully.  Eating well, sleeping, and doing a good job of maintaining her temp  Grin

-Josh
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« Reply #121 on: March 31, 2010, 12:40:44 pm »

Hi Josh,

I am glad to hear that Danielle is doing so well. I guess it will be a while before you get a full nights sleep again
but then babies are worth it. Grin
Looks like the diamond is doing the trick. Slow going but at least it's working. Take care.

 Steve
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #122 on: March 31, 2010, 05:47:14 pm »

Josh,

The knife looks absolutely stunning already!

I keep going back to that movie (I think it was Wayne's World) where the two nerds bow and worship and keep saying, "I'm not worthy!"

Now I know how they felt ... Wow!
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Josh Dabney
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« Reply #123 on: March 31, 2010, 11:30:40 pm »

Back to handle work Pards.

Here you can see I've got the first scale placed where I want it (tight against the bolster) and held in place with a C-clamp and ready to drill the first pin hole.



As soon as I drill the first hole I always put a pin in that hole before moving on to ensure nothing moves and changes the relationship between the wood and bolster.



I also keep inserting pins till I've got 3 in and then proceed with drilling the rest of the holes.  Here is the first side done.



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« Reply #124 on: March 31, 2010, 11:44:30 pm »

I apologize for this lousy pic but it's an important one  Wink

Here yall see where the pre-drilled allignment pin holes that are outside the profile of the handle come into play to keep our scales bookmatched and allow us to transfer our pin holes from the first side through the second.   To drill the second side I chuck my bit up in the corless drill and drill through by hand.   The hole in the first scale will keep the bit going straight.



Pin holes seem to have a knack fer being too tight and fighting ya every step of the way so at this stage I like to put pins through ALL the holes just to prevent problems down the road  Wink




Now that I've got my pin holes done I'll put one side on at a time and use the bandsaw to cut the wood as close to the tang as I can. It's important to not that you do NOT want to hit the tang with the saw as even grazing it will chew some DEEP marks into the tang that will have to be removed.



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