NWMP Carbine Rear Sight

[Garret]

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Greetings!  I've just joined up with a Cimarron NWMP on order.  In my readings I've uncovered an interesting tidbit.  Pardon my relating any info that some or most of you may already know. 

The Cimarron offering has the rear sight as originally produced by Winchester and as supplied to the NWMP in the first shipments to the Force.  As Cimarron supplied the sample piece to Uberti for manufacture I'm assuming this had the early sight.  The problems with sights working loose and being lost on service led to a request by the Mounted Police to change their production to the type as supplied in the Spanish (and happened to be marked in meters): hence the "Spanish Meter" designation.  That would have meant that only the first two shipments  (1878 & 1880) totaling 150 carbines should have had the earlier sight. 

I had a big surprise when I ran across a dealer in the UK that had a legitimate NWMP Carbine with the early sight (never had the 2 holes for the Spanish sight) and was serially numbered in the third shipment to the Force in 1882.  This is after the new sight had been approved by Commissioner Irvine, so there were additional Carbines supplied with the old pattern.   It makes me wonder how many more went to Canada with this sight.  I just think it's a fun thing that the two manufactures of the replicas have the two different pattern sights as supplied to the Mounted Police.

Just goes to show you that there's always something new to learn! 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Maybe Rattlesnake Jack will confirm, but I thought those early sights were replaced by service armourers?

[Buck Stinson]

Garret,
Although I have not seen one of the new Cimarron Mounties up close, I can tell you just by looking at the photo on their web site that the rear sight they are using never existed on ANY original Mountie carbine, early or late.  Do you have the serial number of the carbine in the UK?  I read your post the other day and have some information regarding sights for the Mountie carbines.  I think you'll find it interesting.  When I hear back from you, I'll try to post some pictures.

[Buck Stinson]

First of all, the sight that Cimarron uses on their NWMP carbine, is NOT one that was ever used on any of the original NWMP carbines. Here are some photos of the sights that were used on the model 1876 Winchester carbine in all calibers, including Mountie guns.  I hope this isn't too confusing, but this is how the NWMP first aquired the 1876 Winchester carbine.  One trial carbine was purchased from the store stock at I. G. Baker in Ft. Benton, M.T. in April of 1878.  In May of 1878, 50 more carbines were purchased from I. G. Baker.  We now have a total of 51 carbines in the hands of the NWMP.  All of these guns had the short sight as pictured on the far left in the first photo.  In March of 1879, 50 more carbines were purchased from I. G. Baker.  These guns are listed in the Winchester warehouse ledgers as "carbine, .45-75, sporting leaf sight and lid".  The sporting leaf rear sight is the one second from the left in the same photo.  It is a long leaf ladder sight with the markings on the underside of the leaf.  It was made this way, because the dovetail was too close to the receiver on the early guns and the sight had to be made and mounted in reverse.  See second photo.  (If you look closely, you can see the numbers on the leaf.)  In 1880, 25 more carbines and in March of 1882, another 10 carbines were all purchased from stock at the I. G. Baker store in Ft. Benton.  This brings the total to 136 carbines in Mountie hands.  There is an interesting side note that goes with the last 10 1876 carbines purchased.  In January of 1882, the NWMP purchased 10 Henry Rifles from Baker as "test" guns.  These same 10 Henrys were then used the following March, as trade in's toward the purchase of the 10, 1876 carbines.   The first actual order placed for NWMP carbines with Spanish Meter sights was in April of 1882.  These guns were ordered directly from Winchester by I. G. Baker.  There were 300 guns in that first "Winchester" order with the new Spanish sight.  From that date until the last carbine purchase was delivered in August of 1885, all of the NWMP guns had the Spanish Meter sight.  This sight is second from right in the first photo.  The sight on the far right in that same photo is the standard sporting leaf rear sight with short leaf.  This became the standard carbine rear sight on all commercial carbines from 1882, until the end of production.  The last photo shows the short leaf on this sight. This is the one that Cimarron uses on their rendition of the NWMP carbine, but as I said, it is NOT the correct sight for NWMP carbines.
 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

On April 23, 1884 50 carbines were shipped for NWMP use.  With them were 200 Spanish metre sights @ $.75 each,  presumably to refit older carbines.  On May 30, 1891 a shipment of repair parts were ordered by the force.  The shipment included 200 more rear sights.

I can't tell from Phillips & Klancher, Arms & Accoutrements of the Mounted Police 1873 - 1973 whether any of the forces carbines were left un-modified.  It does indicate that many of the older carbines were re-barreled, and I assume new sights were then mounted on them.

[Garret]

Thanks for setting me straight on that issue, gentlemen!  I stand corrected.  Well, that just goes to show the adage, when you assume, you make and a__ out of U and ME!  When I saw the pic of the Cimarron carbine on their web site, it was obviously not the spanish Meter sight so I assumed it was the one from the first issue.   

I guess the next question for me to ask is if there is any repros of either the first pattern or Spanish Meter sight available?  Sir Charles or Buck, you are both very well versed on the subject, as I'm sure Rattlesnake Jack is.  Any thoughts on that?  I'd like to find out so I may hopefully retrofit a correct sight.  Any hope that Chaparral had any "parts" that might be around for sale?

Thanks again gentlemen.....this is a good example showing the value of such a forum.  Lots of info and folks willing to share with the rest.  All the best,
Garret

[Buck Stinson]

The only place I can think of that might have both the early carbine flip-up sight and the Spanish Meter, would be Chaparral Firearms.  The early carbine sight is pictured on their 1866 carbine reproduction and they would be the only folks to have the Spanish Meter sight.  Give them a call and see what they have available.  

[Abilene]

Some of you pards are awesome fountains of knowledge about the details of these guns.  Today I was talking to Chris at Cimarron and mentioned this thread and he was surprised to hear about the NWMP carbine having the incorrect civilian rear sight.  He told me that Mike Harvey's original carbine has that sight, and so that's what the Italians copied.  I asked if Mike's gun is a NWMP (I've only seen it once and don't recall) and Chris said yes.  Just FYI. 

[Buck Stinson]

Abilene,
NWMP carbine serial numbers are well documented.  The problem in some cases, is the fact that a gun that was sold to the commercial trade, may now have a buttstock with a NWMP banner and the owner assumes that it is a Mountie carbine.  I can't say that is what happened with Mikes gun, but it sure would be nice to know what the serial number is to verify its authenticity.   These guns have been faked for the past 30 years.

[Abilene]

Buck,
I'm not sure if the carbine has been returned from Italy, and even if so getting Mike to open up his safe for me is a low priority for him, I'm sure  but if I ever get a chance to find out that serial number, I will certainly do so.

[Buck Stinson]

Abilene,
That would be great.  Whether it is a true NWMP carbine or not doesn't matter, I would still like to add the gun to my serial number research date base.  I now have almost 4500 serial numbers.  That's close to 8% of the total production number.

[Abilene]

Well, I was misinformed about Mike Harvey's carbine.  He told me it is a civilian model, not a NWMP.  So that explains the civilian rear sight and why Uberti puts it on the NWMP model.  Sorry Buck, but he didn't seem too interested in giving out s/n's of his 5 or 6 '76's.

[Buck Stinson]

I had my suspisions as to whether or not it was a true Mountie, but now we know.  Although I'm a bit surprised, I don't have a problem with him not wanting to add his guns to my '76 research material.  There are more than enough to keep me going for years to come.  Thanks a bunch for the help.

Adios,
Buck