1873 Uberti in 44 mag. + toggle-link strength

[McLernon]

Somewhere I read of a test that old Winchester carried out on the 76............cannot remember the details but the strength of the action was very high. Is it as strong as a 95 .....NO......but maybe someone can post the details of the test???


Mc

[Grizzly Adams]

Somewhere I read of a test that old Winchester carried out on the 76............cannot remember the details but the strength of the action was very high. Is it as strong as a 95 .....NO......but maybe someone can post the details of the test???


Mc

Bill Hockett wrote the test up in this article.  By the way, it's in the "Useful Links" thread.

http://outlawswinchesters.websitemaker.nl/1873/1275048

[FriscoCounty]

Now, how did Uberti manage to convince themselves to put a .44 Mag in a '73? 

Once you decide to do .44 Special, .44 Magnum is a natural progression as some states allow it for hunting.  Even at 36,000 PSI for the .44 Magnum, that is still less than the pressure generated by modern rifle loads.  The .30-30 generates  42,000, the .303 British generates 49,000, the .308 Winchester generates 62,000, and the .223 Rem generates 55,000 PSI. 

[Buck Stinson]

Yes, but the point being, should or could a .44mag load be fired safely in a toggle link action?  I don't care who made the gun, it would be a dangerous attempt in my opinion. 

[Martini450]

I can't imagine that Uberti would sell a rifle that is remotely likely to blow up when fired.  Should be interesting to see if and/or how they've strengthened the basic toggle link action.  From everything I've ever read, the weak part of the design is the toggle pins; maybe they've made them bigger and of higher strength steel.  In my opinion, one potential danger is that some owners of the same model in 44-40 (of which I am one) may make the erroneous assumption that it's okay to hotrod loads for their rifles, such as loads listed for the 1892 Winchester, based on the fact that the same model is available in 44 mag.

[Trailrider]

I can't imagine that Uberti would sell a rifle that is remotely likely to blow up when fired.  Should be interesting to see if and/or how they've strengthened the basic toggle link action.  From everything I've ever read, the weak part of the design is the toggle pins; maybe they've made them bigger and of higher strength steel.  In my opinion, one potential danger is that some owners of the same model in 44-40 (of which I am one) may make the erroneous assumption that it's okay to hotrod loads for their rifles, such as loads listed for the 1892 Winchester, based on the fact that the same model is available in 44 mag.

It may be that Uberti has beefed up or used a stronger alloy in the .44 Magnum versions of their '73's.  If they are fitting the ends of the links to the recoil shoulders in the receiver and the breechblock PROPERLY, the pins really don't take much recoil.  If the pins are taking the brunt of the recoil, they may be using a larger diameter pin, or better alloy/heat treatment.

So far as heating up .44-40 loads to equal the .44 Magnum SAAMI specs, I would certainly caution AGAINST IT!   In the first place, the .44-40 has a larger base diameter than the Maggie case, resulting in greater backthrust on the bolt and pins, shoulders, etc., if the two are loaded to equal pressures.  Second, the .44-40 brass is usually thinner than the .44 Magnum cases, which means the .44-40 is more sensitive to pressure.

The .44-40 has greater internal volume than the .44 Magnum case, so it takes about 7 percent more powder to get the same velocities from a .44-40 as in the Maggie, using the same bullet and Hodgdon's Universal powder.  Loaded to velocites that are SASS-legal, you shouldn't have any trouble duplicating the velocities of the two cartridges.  But I would NOT recommend trying to "hotrod" the .44-40 Uberti-made or original Winchesters, for that matter.  Save those Winchester Hi Velocity loads for the '92's, as Winchester advertised back in the 1920's!!!

[Martini450]

I hope my post didn't give the impression that I would approve of such loading practices.  On the contrary, I agree with everything you said, and would go even further by saying I wouldn't even use the hot loads listed for the 1892 in and 1892 either.  The '92 action is certainly strong enough, but the case is not.  I've not loaded for a '92 myself, but have read that the hotter loads in 44-40, fired in the '92 action, have resulted in case separations in as little as two loadings. 

My point is that there may be people out there that are less cautious then they should be that will assume that, since the apparently same rifle is available in 44 mag, they can jack up their 44-40 loads.  In my opinion, this would be a dangerous mistake to make.  For myself, if I want a 44 magnum, I'll buy a 44 magnum.  My 44-40 does exactly what it's supposed to with reasonable loads.

[Trailrider]

I hope my post didn't give the impression that I would approve of such loading practices.  On the contrary, I agree with everything you said, and would go even further by saying I wouldn't even use the hot loads listed for the 1892 in and 1892 either.  The '92 action is certainly strong enough, but the case is not.  I've not loaded for a '92 myself, but have read that the hotter loads in 44-40, fired in the '92 action, have resulted in case separations in as little as two loadings. 

My point is that there may be people out there that are less cautious then they should be that will assume that, since the apparently same rifle is available in 44 mag, they can jack up their 44-40 loads.  In my opinion, this would be a dangerous mistake to make.  For myself, if I want a 44 magnum, I'll buy a 44 magnum.  My 44-40 does exactly what it's supposed to with reasonable loads.

Amen, Pard! Amen!

[Grapeshot]

Since joining this forum, and reading others, I keep hearing about the inherent weakness of the toggle-link action in the 73 + 76.
If it is so weak, how can Uberti chamber a 73 in the 44 mag. Your thoughts...

"The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

 
  
 
  I had to go to one of the earlier posts in this forum to find this.  One of our other members posted this a couple of years ago.[/size]

[Joe Lansing]

    This debate reminds me of the ancient Greek Philosophers debating "how many teeth a horse has" without considering actually looking in a horses mouth and counting the teeth. With this in mind, I "went to the horses mouth" and E-mailed Uberti in Italy.
    I asked them if they made the 44mag. '73 stronger, or if they found the action strong enough as is. I also asked what the proof pressures are for the 44mag. as well as the 44-40.
    As soon as I get a reply I will post their response.

                                                       J.L.

[Martini450]

Good call.  I had a conversation with the 'smith at Taylor's about this about a month ago, and at that point they didn't know any more than any of us.  Don't know when they'll be getting any in inventory, but when they do I want to make the drive out there to look at one.  Maybe he'd be willing to take the side plate off of one for a peak. 

I'll still be sticking to my mild 44-40 loads regardless of what Uberti says because of the strength limitations of the brass, but it would be nice to hear what they have to say. 

[Grizzly Adams]

Can't remember where I read it, but I believe Harve Curry e-mailed them regarding this, and was told that the hardness of the receiver has been increased, and that's why it is only available in the blue finish.  The rest of the rifle is the same.   

[Qball]

Any more hard facts in this topic?

[Grizzly Adams]

I've heard nothing more on this topic.    However, the more I think about the more I like the idea.  An 1873 that one could shoot 44 special in for CAS and also use 44 mag in for a saddle gun does have appeal!

Now, maybe that will stir up the dust a bit!

[Martini450]

Can't remember where I read it, but I believe Harve Curry e-mailed them regarding this, and was told that the hardness of the receiver has been increased, and that's why it is only available in the blue finish.  The rest of the rifle is the same.   

I think I found where you read this. 

http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?s=8609096ff3b528ac3e444d87efc6856e&t=21663

Someone on that forum emailed Uberti's customer service about this, and got the following reply:

"Bill,
Sorry, with this gun the hardness level of the metal has been increased.
That is why it is only offered in a blue case hardened finish. The
action is the same as the other calibers.

Thank you,
Customer Service

RE: 1873 Win copy 44 magnum"

Comforting to know that the toggle link action is probably stronger than we've all thought, but I'd still like to see one of these with the side plates off.

[Trailrider]

I think I found where you read this. 

(snip)
Comforting to know that the toggle link action is probably stronger than we've all thought, but I'd still like to see one of these with the side plates off.

Well, buy one and you can take the sideplates off to your heart's content!    I wouldn't mind owning one in .44-40, but right now that isn't in the FY2010 budget! 

[Martini450]

I feel your pain.  My FY2010 budget wouldn't allow for the sideplates alone, much less the whole rifle!

By the way, I highly recommend the 44-40 model.  Mine has the full 30" barrel, and it's a tack driver. 

[Lightnin Rick]

Just found out about the 73 in 44 mag as I was searching for 44 mag info on my Hawes western marshall revolver. I would like a rifle mate for it... Sometime--$$.
Has anyone received the Uberti or any more info?

[Martini450]

Rick,

I just read your post, and it inspired me to call Taylor and Company.  According to the girl who answered the phone, thier computer shows a couple in stock right now, priced at just over twelve hundred bucks.  She's new to the company, so I had her triple check the calibre, and she assured me it's the 44 Magnum with a 19" barrel.  I might just have to make a drive out that way in the next week or two to have a little look. 

After all the wait, maybe they're actually making these things!

[Abilene]

Yeah, Cimarron has the 44mag carbines as well.  I asked if anything was "different" about them to beef them up, and the answer was no. 

[Roland]

It's been a while now. Has anyone bought one of these in .44mag and checked it out? I'd heard conflicting reports on the modified action or not. It's really crazy to think that this action is standing up to that kind of abuse, I'd love to hear from any current owners.

I currently have a 629 and Rossi 1892 in .44mag and I'd love to have an 1873 in .44mag as well (but in a sporting rifle config), so I wouldn't need to get any more reloading equipment. I mostly shoot cast bullets at .44spl velocities anyhow.

[blackpowder]

Since joining this forum, and reading others, I keep hearing about the inherent weakness of the toggle-link action in the 73 + 76.
If it is so weak, how can Uberti chamber a 73 in the 44 mag. Your thoughts...

Thank you, RedBaron, for posting this because I've got a lot to say about this; mainly because I have to deal with exactly this problem.

Here are some facts: I own a 73, Cal. 38-40 Winchester made in 1885 and a Uberti 73, Cal. 357mag. made in 2009. With the sideplates off, the toggle actions, links and all other parts connectet to them are completely identical. You can practically use Uberti spare parts for your old winchesters. They fit. Another Fact: The model 1873 was designed for the 44-40, 38-40 and other cartridges in use at the time. NOT, however, for modern high pressure magnum cartridges. Fact: Uberti is required, as most European gun manufacturers to proofshoot their weapons with ammo loaded to much higher pressures than factory ammo. (I think someone already mentioned this somewhere above). So you don not have to worry about magnum cartridges, whether they are .44mag or .357mag, to break your gun. It will not happen. Ok, so much for the facts.

But the 44mag and the 357mag is problematic in the 1873 models. And here is my opinion as to why. While occasional use of magnum cartridges will not adversly affect your gun, a steady diet of these hard full house magnum loads will over time wear out the link-pins of the toggle action. The action will become looser and sooner or later this will result in a broken link-pin disabling your gun (Dont worry, it will not blow up on you but the action will just quit working).

To avoid this occurring, I use the .357s only sparingly and mostly shoot 38Spls. The same applies to the 44mag. You should use 44Spl for everyday practice shooting, using the magnums only when needed. This practice, however, brings another problem down on you - chamber fouling. The shorter cases of the 44Spl and 38Spl cause the front end of the chamber to collect layers of powder residue which after about 500 shots will make loading the longer magnum cases impossible. This is a well known problem with wheelguns but easy to remedy by cleaning. Not so with lever action rifles because you can't easily access the chamber with cleaning utensils (I still havent found a practical way to clean out the chamber after shooting 38s)

Having said all this, I would not again buy an 1873 in either 357 or 44 magnum calibers. I would prefer to get a model 1892 in those modern magnum calibers such as .44Rem. Mag. I hear winchester again produces replicas of these guns. I dont know how well made they are. Perhaps some other member has one already and can share his experience with it.  

[Roland]

I feed my '92 and 629 a steady diet of home loaded ammo thats in the .44spl range anyway. Using Vihtavuori N32c powder. I would feed the '73 the same if one existed in the config I want.

Now that I think about it, I currently use bought 225gr .44-40 bullets for these rifles.

[blackpowder]

.44Spl range is quite alright.

You can use .44Spls in a Uberti 73 set up for .44mag just fine. Just like I use 38Spl in my Uberti 73 set up for .357mag (just difficult to clean the chambers after a few 100 rounds). But to use the full house magnum loads will in time wear out your toggle action as I described above.

[Roland]

I wonder if they had upgraded the action with the aforementioned key that the '76 model has, would that have increased the actions strenght enough to accepta steady diet of magnum rounds?