1873 Uberti in 44 mag. + toggle-link strength

[RedBaron]

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Since joining this forum, and reading others, I keep hearing about the inherent weakness of the toggle-link action in the 73 + 76.
If it is so weak, how can Uberti chamber a 73 in the 44 mag. Your thoughts...

[shieldsmt]

They don't.

[.45colt]

 Yep, it's on the Uberti website for '10. Alot of shooters are scratchin their heads wondering How? .
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1873_rifle_and_carbine.php

[shieldsmt]

Wow, it's on the site.  Typo? 

[Barbarossa]

Nope not a typo ,new gun just out.

[Shotgun Franklin]

It's possible to beef up the action. I'm not sure why you'd want a '73 in .44 Mag? There are stronger actions and the only use I can think of would be for hunting. The Cowboy shooters whom I've seen using .44 Mag all used a very down loaded version.

[RedBaron]

Loaded down, strengthened, or whatever, Uberti would not sell a 73 that would not handle 44 mag factory loads. That is the point.  Even if the action has been modified, it is still a toggle-link.

[Silver_Rings]

The Luger pistol is also a toggle link design and seems pretty strong to me.  Where is the data to support the Win toggle is a weak design and that it wasn't just the metal used in the design in the 1800'S?

Just curious.

SR

[RedBaron]

The "data" is what I have read on this forum,  specifically when smokeless loads are mentioned.  Also, I called the Hodgedon tech line, asking about H4895 in the 45-60 WCF (Uberti), and the tech spent the entire time telling me that toggle-links were extremely weak and prone to "blowing up".  Originals and repro's.  I even went to look in my safe to see if mine had blown up just sitting there.

[Trailrider]

The "data" is what I have read on this forum,  specifically when smokeless loads are mentioned.  Also, I called the Hodgedon tech line, asking about H4895 in the 45-60 WCF (Uberti), and the tech spent the entire time telling me that toggle-links were extremely weak and prone to "blowing up".  Originals and repro's.  I even went to look in my safe to see if mine had blown up just sitting there.

You simply are NOT going to get any powder or ammo maker to give you a blanket okay (or even a partial okay, depending on the gun) to shoot smokeless powder, except to the loads they specify in their published manuals.  Their product liability is too high.  That does NOT mean I'm contradicting the individual you talked to (nor can I assume any responsibility for the use of such loads in guns not my own...usual disclaimer).

While it is difficult to sue foreign manufacturers for defects in design, manufacture, etc., I would suspect that the importers into this country would make danged sure that whatever they are selling is safe.  Obviously, Uberti has done some redesigning of the '73, to enable them to accomodate .44 Magnum loads that meet SAAMI standards, i.e., factory loads or lighter.

I would NOT be surprised if the .44 Mangle-'em guns are a bit stiffer out of the box than previous models, for the reasons of fit-up I stated in my previous post.  As to the toggle link action being inherently "weak", I would point out that not only did the Luger Parabellum 1908 use a toggle link, but so did the Swarzlose M1913 design, and the Pedersen, which was designed to use a .276 cartridge, but later modified to .30-06 because of then Chief-of-Staff of the Army Douglas MacArthur's edict of sticking to the .30-06 cartridge.  Although these rifles were semi-automatic, and operated on the delayed-blowback principle, they obviously weren't weak per se.  (See "Book of the Garand" by Gen. Julian Hatcher.)  Be interesting to see what the new Uberti '73's look like inside, though I have no present intention of buying one in that caliber...at present! 

[Joe Lansing]

    When is some responsible engineering lab lab going to pick a few rifles randomly from the market place (like Consumers Union), 66's, 73's, and 76's, and keep working up the loads until they either blow the gun or give up? They do this with cars.

                                                                            J.L.

                                                                                             

[Shotgun Franklin]

You can beef up a toggle link. The '76 is a toggle link action. I figure that CAS is the biggest market for  a '73. If there are enough shooters who want a '73 .44 Mag, which will likely be used with lighter loads, then someone coming out with a .44 Mag '73 may turn out to be a good move. As a broad rule, heavier actions tend to be harder to tune. I'd expect the price for tuning a .44 will be higher or harder to do.
Is a '73 available in .44 Spl? I think so. A .44 Spl would be easier to load lighter and could be shorter while still holding at least 10 rounds.

[Joe Lansing]

    We can't assume that the 44 mag is beefed up. It may be that the standard new 73's are strong enough, or they have enhanced the materials of construction (as was the case when the Ishapore Enfields went from 303 British to 7.62 nato.).
    The only pictures of a toggle rifle that blew up that I have seen was a '76(original) that had a double dose of smokeless. As I recall, the barrel burst, but the breech held.
    I guess we'll just have to wait 'till someone gets a 44 mag and compares it to a regular '73 and posts their observations. Don't forget that truth can be stranger than fiction.

                                                               J.L.

[shieldsmt]

I read this with amusement.  I've got a Uberti '73 in 44wcf (44-40), caliber it was introduced with.  It feeds flawlessly, is accurate, has plenty of thump to kill deer and antelope with authority.  I started out loading with harder 200 gr. lead using Unique powder.  After 100 rds I went to 3fg black and soft lead 200's and never turned back.  Every deer, antelope and rabbit taken was taken with black.  It's what this gun was designed with and performs admirably.  I'm not saying it is stupid to want the gun in a modern caliber that didn't even exist in anyones mind back in the day, but to me - it really seems to be on par with putting a new 6.0Liter Chevy engine in a 67 Plymouth Valiant.  It can be done, sure, but why?  Modern cartridge in a modern gun, like a Marlin.  The Ishapore Enfield going from 303 Brit to 308 made sense, they were tooled to build these rifles, 308 became the free worlds 30 cal. and they had forces to arm cheaply.  If they are safe, and Uberti can sell them God bless them, we all want the firearms industry to survive and prosper.  I just can't see it personally.

[FriscoCounty]

Has anyone compared the SAAMI max CUP for .357 Mag and .44 Mag?  It is 48.9K for the .357 Mag and 41.9K for the .44 Mag

[Grizzly Adams]

Interesting to note that they put a shotgun butt stock and recoil pad on this one, so I guess they're serious.

One of the things to keep in mind is that Uberti Arms, and all other Italian makers, are required by law to have their products proofed by the Italian government in state owned proof houses.  The proof loads used in Italian proof houses exceed those used in this country.   If Uberti marks their new 73 for 44 mag, then it is proofed and meets SAAMI standards for the 44 mag or they would not be allowed to export it - their rules, not ours.

One of the improvements necessary to make this possible, is the strengthen design of the bolt and firing pin assembly, which now uses the "key" to retain the firing pin extension, rather than the wimpy cross pin in the early design, which could, on rare occasions,  shear.  The "Key" is also used in the 76 Uberti.  Much stronger set up and more like the original Winchester.



I have never seen pics of any blown 73 or 76 that resulted in collapsed links - only burst breeches and barrels.

My only question is why?  I don't like the 44 mag in any light weight carbine!

Now as to the question of why we keep smokeless loads for the 76 on the mild side of things, it is primarily because we are on untested ground, and must proceed slowly and cautiously until more data is confirmed, either by field trial or in a lab.

[Joe Lansing]

    I am not about to run out and buy myself a 44 mag. '73, or am I going to start loading 44-40's through the roof....but I am ready to take comfort in learning that my Uberti '73 has a greater safety margin in its strength.
    The 44-40 use to be factory loaded with a MV of about 1320 fps from a rifle and 930 fps from a 7.5" barrel pistol. This changed some years ago with revived interest in 44-40 as a pistol cartridge...it had been too hot for casual or cowboy shooting. Also it has been a source of frustration to have a smokeless load suitable for both rifle and pistol, unless all you're interested in is punching holes in paper. All that makes me happy is a smokeless 44-40 load that gives me the 1320 fps from my rifle and without worrying about blowing up a pistol. Thank God for handloading!
     I'm kind of old fashoned....the only reason I  have a 38 special Yellowboy (bought back in '68) is that it wasn't available in 44 RF, but I'm getting too old and tired of scrubbing out my spent cartridge cases.

                                                      J.L.

[RedBaron]

The whole point of my original post was not to question the merits of the 44 mag caliber in the 73. It was to consider that IF the action HAS NOT been altered, that maybe the toggle-link in a modern repro, is stronger than  we think. That might bring into question the very-very weak smokeless loads that we have debated.

[Grizzly Adams]

Now as to the question of why we keep smokeless loads for the 76 on the mild side of things, it is primarily because we are on untested ground, and must proceed slowly and cautiously until more data is confirmed, either by field trial or in a lab.

The new reproductions are stronger than the originals.  How much, is yet to be determined.  The fact that Uberti is chambering the 73 in 44mag is just one indicator of where we are.  Perhaps we are being overly cautious, but that is a good thing, given the lack of proven data for the 76.  We have a number of very knowledgeable folks working with these rifles now, and we are learning a lot about their potential.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Maybe some Gun Writer will give us a real in depth article and cover some of our questions. Uberti knows the truth for sure.

[savage99t]

I know I'm new to this site but definiatly not new to guns,  just wondering if any of you guys have read Oliver Winchesters reply to someone asking about the strength of the 1876 Winchester?  best I remember it took like 2800 grains of lead and a big overload of powder to actually blow up the gun.   I wouldn't exactly call that weak and I have really been wondering were all the weak stories come from other than someone repeating what someone else said kind of like the Italian Carcano stories spread around about it being weak which has been proved to be miss guided urban myth.   Now I wouldn't bet my Chaparral is as strong as an original due to all the sloppy tolerances but the metal the pieces are made out of may well be stonger than the original steel Winchester used in the 1800's.  As to what the last poster said you're definiatly right Uberti knows for sure.  I have no doubt they have done blow up tests on the 1876 and 1873 with all the product liability suits out there.   

[Joe Lansing]

   Your observation is well taken and has been discussed before, but the truth is that all of our deductive reasoning is just that until someone publishes or otherwise reveals the hard test data. I for one believe the toggle actions are stronger than previously supposed, but I'm not prepared to bet my life....or someone else's on that belief....at least not until the data and facts come in.               

                                                                  J.L.

[Hobie]

Has anyone compared the SAAMI max CUP for .357 Mag and .44 Mag?  It is 48.9K for the .357 Mag and 41.9K for the .44 Mag

But the breach thrust isn't the same as the .357 Mag has a much smaller case head..

[FriscoCounty]

But the breach thrust isn't the same as the .357 Mag has a much smaller case head..

Fair enough. 

The Cylinder size on the .357 is .359 in and on the .44 it is .4569 in.  Don't want to use the breech face as there is no pressure being generated on the portion of the breech face outside of the cylinder.  That portion of the breech face merely serves to dissipate some of the pressure. 

Switching from CUP to PSI, the .357 generates a max avg pressure of 35,000 PSI and the .44 a max avg pressure of 36,000 PSI.  That yields a max pressure of 3,949 lbs and 5,902 lbs respectively.  So, about 1/3 more.

For a 180 and 240 grain bullet, respectively, that yields 4.98 and 7.58 Ns and 1,062 and 1,849 joules.

[Hobie]

Fair enough. 

The Cylinder size on the .357 is .359 in and on the .44 it is .4569 in.  Don't want to use the breech face as there is no pressure being generated on the portion of the breech face outside of the cylinder.  That portion of the breech face merely serves to dissipate some of the pressure. 

Switching from CUP to PSI, the .357 generates a max avg pressure of 35,000 PSI and the .44 a max avg pressure of 36,000 PSI.  That yields a max pressure of 3,949 lbs and 5,902 lbs respectively.  So, about 1/3 more.

For a 180 and 240 grain bullet, respectively, that yields 4.98 and 7.58 Ns and 1,062 and 1,849 joules.

Thanks for doing some math.  I didn't check behind you as I know that in any "case" it is close enough to illustrate the point. 

Now, how did Uberti manage to convince themselves to put a .44 Mag in a '73?