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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Cas City Historical Society (Moderators: St. George, Silver Creek Slim)  |  Topic: What gear would an 1860 Californio carry with him? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: What gear would an 1860 Californio carry with him?  (Read 59746 times)
ChuckBurrows
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« Reply #250 on: November 24, 2011, 05:03:47 pm »

Hey WWE

Here is my Copy of the original Main & Winchester Holster you post several month ago.
One word to the belt. I do not know who made this belt.... anyway, they do not tool the belts this way!!! never in the 1850 - 1860. This kind of craftools came much later, 1880´s. Normaly they use plain belts (several military belts) and carved, not tooled Holsters I will also post pics.
Will post some knifes of this time periode later, also as spurs.

have a great day
Andy Rombach

With all due respect Andy I made the belt and despite your statement to the contrary they did use stamping 1850-60 at times in California - I was fortunate enough when I lived in So Cal many years ago to inspect several private collections in the Santa Barbara area and stamped leather was part of most of those collections from as far back as the Spanish Colonial era. I've also had the pleasure to inspect several collections nearby me in Northern New Mexico that includes stamping - in fact the stamps that my neighbors the Navajo use for tooling silver, which dates back to at least the 1850's, were originally leather stamps adapted for stamping silver.:
While my stamping on the belt is admittedly not an exact copy of any original sit is inspired by some work (I seldom make exact copies anymore. After 30 years of doing it I prefer my own muse and now mostly only do historically  inspired pieces) from that period such as this belt that dates from the 1850-60 period:

In general carving tended to be more common in the early days as well as more or less plain belts, but there are plenty of exceptions. But then again I am not a re-enactor as such and overall I am not interested in just the common, but the entire "catalog" of historic artifacts and especially the esoteric. IMO neither "way" is better - justr different......

As for chaps being made from bark tan vs chrome: I agree depending on era - pre circa 1880 the majority of chaps would have been made from bark tan, but after that the use of chrome tanned increased until by the mid-1890's or so they became the most common.

And by the way Andy you do some VERY fine work sir........
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aka Nolan Sackett
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Andy Rombach
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« Reply #251 on: November 25, 2011, 11:18:08 am »

Hey ChuckBurrows

Thanks for the Informations. We can not know it all Undecided
Anyway, the have tooled leather since the 1000 years bevor Jesus was born, and most of them use metall tools. It is not the Question of tooling, it is the question of the style of tooling. May be the old leathercrafters use Navajo siver tools, have never seen that Sad
I have not seen much cartridge or gunbelts tooled in the 1850´s. Most of them where straight belts, most of the time only with a simple border line. Ore figural stitching. On Holsters they use knifes to cut out little lines, or use simpel leather tools, most of them where selfmade.
As I know the first stamping tools, as we know them, came out in the 1860.... may be you´ll know it better.

For the crome leather. Well, the have crome tanned leather since 1865 - 1867, and some saddlerys use them on chaps as well. I does not use it for my chaps. Most of the well known Companys use the natural tanned stuff. R.T. Frazier use crome Lather for chaps since 1895, mostly on batwings, sometimes on shotguns. H.H. Heiser and C.P. Shipley use crome tanned stuff as well on the havy rodeo and working chaps since ca. 1910. Many saddle Companys use the chrome stuff for saddlestrings, because it was much more stronger (sorry, dont know the right word) than natural tanned straps and strings...

No Question, if you do no reproductions it is up to you what leather you use and which stams you use. The main thing is that the customers love it!!! Andyway you also do great job.

Have a wonderfull day

Andy Rombach
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #252 on: February 27, 2012, 02:37:57 am »

Bump!!
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #253 on: November 30, 2012, 04:54:32 pm »

Update,

I have so far gotten the Claveras, Jacket and tie ...

I have a gun-that-never-was: a ASM.44 CAL. '51 Colt ... a slim Jim holster for it and a correct belt ...

Andy Rorbach was kind enough to sell me a nice set of spurs with horizontal spurs that can be worn with the set of Justin Ropers that I have ,,, and I will make/beg/borrow or steal to make some buckleless   (i.e. leather) spur straps before reenactment season (by next spring)> I still have not recieved the Botas, and hope to make them by spring ...

I just have these few projects to do before I start on these ...*S*
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403
WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #254 on: December 20, 2012, 06:05:05 pm »

Update,

I have so far gotten the Calveras, Jacket and tie ...

I have a gun-that-never-was: a ASM.44 CAL. '51 Colt ... a slim Jim holster for it and a correct belt ...

Andy Rorbach was kind enough to sell me a nice set of spurs with horizontal spurs that can be worn with the set of Justin Ropers that I have ,,, and I will make/beg/borrow or steal to make some buckleless   (i.e. leather) spur straps before reenactment season (by next spring)> I still have not received the Botas, and hope to make them by spring ...

I just have these few projects to do before I start on these ...*S*

Update # 2:

I am pretty much where I left offf ... working on other projects ...

I now have a Cap N Ball Lyman Plains pistol ...

And here is an old shot of the Californio look ... circa 1850-1860:




Here is my new (to me ) Lyman Plains Pistol;


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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Steel Horse Bailey
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« Reply #255 on: December 26, 2012, 12:30:45 am »

Good stuff, pard!
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #256 on: December 26, 2012, 01:01:15 am »

Thanks,

I only wish my humble, broken Spanish was much better: The audience that I really want to 'tag' is young Hispanics, most have been given no clue as to early California History and how much they have to be proud of ...

TTFN,
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Tsalagidave
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« Reply #257 on: March 04, 2013, 05:47:20 pm »

Wadd, there is a lot of archaeological evidence of US surplus (mostly mex war vintage) arms and accouterments being sold in California during the gold rush but the reliable old hunting pouch is, in my opinion, the best bet for the following reasons.

1. Most military reenactors carry their military traps as "surplus" in their civilian impression also. Since it is over represented, I like to give the nod to civilian apparel.

2. A civilian hunting bag is easy to work with. It carries my powder flask and bullet bag on the trail easily enough. When I am stalking or firing repeated shots, the bag and flask are in my shirt of coat pocket for easy access. I have greased patches in my stock and dry patches in my pocket.

3. I have a capper on a thong attached to my bag or (with firelock) I prime from my powder measure. (I rarely carry a priming horn when carrying 3F in my horn)

For leathers, I recommend a California holster, hunting bag, belt, & sheath knife. Keep it simple and elegant.

-Dave
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #258 on: March 04, 2013, 06:49:59 pm »

Tsalgidave,

I have two distinct characters that I portray, about 20-30 years apart ...

The first is a Californio from the 1830s-1840s (I have given up on an 1850s Californio ... they were not to trying to  'fit in as they were in 1850 the Californio Style was more 'static'.

I have a Lyman Plains Pistol and Pedersoli Scout, both in .50 Cal, that seems more realistic ... but I think I have to pick up a Mexican style  saber ...


It seems that Californios did not wear boots but more of a brogan ... although it does not have the square toe that was extant at the time, The closest that I have found is a pair of Justin Ropers sans tongues. I have also gotten some hard to find straight 'Shanks that will work with a low heel ... a copy of an old Buerman design ... not actual but close ... Now I have to make some buckleless spur straps and then fabricate some Botas and I will be set .... I hope to emulate the Berellessa Family before Fremont and Kit Carson had their effect on them ....
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403
Tsalagidave
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Dave Rodgers


« Reply #259 on: March 04, 2013, 07:58:02 pm »

Richard Henry Dana documents the sale of US-made shoes to the Californios in large numbers so an 1830-40s-era work shoe with California spurs and botas de talon are spot-on accurate. For 1830's-40's weaponry, I'd get a period hangar with provenance of importation to California or have a blacksmith replicate one based of photography/paintings. Typical firepower would not likely include a pistol but rather a plain eastern rifle or fowler (flintlock). Californios were not known for their leather working quality. Most of the finely  made Californio leather items are believed to have come from either Mexico or South America and their industrial made goods were imported from the US and Europe. You could carry an old surplus musket from the Napoleonic/Pre Napoleonic era, likely of Spanish, English or even Russian design.

I can't wait to see what you end up with Wadd. Sounds like you have a great project going and have really made some strides with it.

-Dave
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #260 on: March 04, 2013, 08:54:55 pm »

Tsalgidave.

Here is the Lyman Plains pistol ... a stock shot I got from the Lyman Website:



Same with the Pedersoli Scout (my camera is kinda fuzzy):



These are pics of the Bridger Bag from October Country:





These are very similar to the ones I got for the Justins ....



These are a pic from the internet of the Justin Ropers:



Here is a pic with the bag in Action  ... doing the Squatter's Riots last summer:




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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Nortekman
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« Reply #261 on: August 16, 2013, 03:23:41 am »

Hello everyone, this is my first post; I came across this thread while researching about the typical costumes Mexicans wore in the 19th century, specially the Charros/rancheros and hacendados (land owners). I wanted to make my own vaquero costume or possibly buy one; I am doing some historical work here in Texas about the original cowboy, i.e., the Mexican cowboy and I wanted to look the part. I searched for paintings that might depict Mexicans of that era to give me some idea of how they dressed. I also went to some San Antonio charro shops but they only sold post 1800's charro suits and I want the pre 1800's suits.

While searching I befriended a Mexican man from Monterrey, who told me to search for "chinaco ranchero" or "traje chinaco," and told me the names of a few painters/artists from the era who depicted Mexican life in the 19th century. Well the info was great and I was able to find some Flickr groups/sets that specialized in Mexican cowboy culture: http://www.flickr.com/groups/927225@N20/
My problem, though, is that I need some info on how to make my own suit based on those pictures or find a place where I can buy the suit exactly as it is portrayed in those pictures. I found an online Charro store from Mexico where they make them the traditional way by hand, but they only ship withing Mexico

Here are some pictures I found in that Flickr group:

"Ataque a la Diligencia" from mid 1850's. Just outside Mexico City


"Asalto a Diligencia" by Manuel Serrano, circa 1855


"Portal del Coliseo Viejo" from Casimiro Castro y J. Campillo's "Trajes Mexicanos" book 1855-1856.


A lancer fighting a French Zouave during the French invasion of Mexico in the 1860's


El Ranchero from the book ”Los Mexicanos Pintados por si Mismos” from 1842


Just killed a Frenchman or gringo


My friend also gave the name of a few Mexican movies that depict the era. I was only able to find 5 of them on Youtube. i dont understand Spanish very well, but they show how it was back then

"El ahijado de la Muerte" set in late 1840's early 1850's (scroll to 0:28)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y01m5Zv841Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y01m5Zv841Q</a>
"Bugambilia" set in the 1860's
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UERz3IvsT3U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UERz3IvsT3U</a>
"La Feria de las Flores" set in 1852 (check minute 13:00 if you dont want to watch the whole thing)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqC-416ST8Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqC-416ST8Y</a>
"Camino de Sacramento" set in the early to mid 1840's (scroll to minute 4:06)
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyjJWgLGDro" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyjJWgLGDro</a>
"Historia de un gran amor" set in the late 1830's
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5q8_ypu7go" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5q8_ypu7go</a>
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flyingcollie
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« Reply #262 on: August 20, 2013, 09:09:06 pm »

Quote
. . .I'm thinking that a person might have carried a small tin in a pocket with some paper cartridges, common at that time . . .

A little nit-picking, paper cartridges were made up with conical balls . . . the '51 Colt doesn't have enough clearance to allow for loading other than a round ball, much less a conical ball with a paper cartridge attached . . .
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El Tio Loco
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« Reply #263 on: August 22, 2013, 03:05:08 pm »

A little nit-picking, paper cartridges were made up with conical balls . . . the '51 Colt doesn't have enough clearance to allow for loading other than a round ball, much less a conical ball with a paper cartridge attached . . .
Every 1851 Colt I have seen accepts paper cartridges with a conical ball attached. Colt issued a two cavity bullet mold (round ball and conical) with every pistol sold.  Colt produced envelope (paper) cartridges for most of their percussion revolvers.  In 1851 the army bought 393,304 paper cartridges for use and the soldiers preferred them over loading with a flask.
 Ken
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flyingcollie
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« Reply #264 on: August 23, 2013, 08:28:44 pm »

Maybe I got my head up where it's dark and hard to breathe ?  I have a couple of Uberti '61 navies that take a paper cartridge with a conical ball jes' fine, plenty of clearance under the ram. I have not been able to manage to get a conical ball loaded in the Colt 2nd gen. '51 Navies I have, much less with a paper cartridge attached. I'd appreciate some tips, sincerely !!
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Skeeter Lewis
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« Reply #265 on: September 18, 2014, 01:39:10 pm »

I've heard those Californio jackets wore like iron. What were the originals made of? Wool? Wool and cotton?
Also are there any photos of original 19th century examples?
Skeet
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Professor Marvel
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« Reply #266 on: September 20, 2014, 01:13:40 am »

Maybe I got my head up where it's dark and hard to breathe ?  I have a couple of Uberti '61 navies that take a paper cartridge with a conical ball jes' fine, plenty of clearance under the ram. I have not been able to manage to get a conical ball loaded in the Colt 2nd gen. '51 Navies I have, much less with a paper cartridge attached. I'd appreciate some tips, sincerely !!

Ah My Good Collie -
No, you are not sufferring from a cranial inversion. What you are experiencing is one of the problems with Replicas vs Originals.

Most of the 1851 Replicas do not have sufficient space for a conical, and amongst the common mods for "more better historicity" is to open up the clearance.

yhs
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Cas City Historical Society (Moderators: St. George, Silver Creek Slim)  |  Topic: What gear would an 1860 Californio carry with him? « previous next »
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