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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  Cas City Historical Society (Moderators: St. George, Silver Creek Slim)  |  Topic: What gear would an 1860 Californio carry with him? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: What gear would an 1860 Californio carry with him?  (Read 64528 times)
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2009, 01:07:26 pm »

Russ:

I understand entirely ...

But back to the main subject ... I know there are several historians here that have Californio background .... does any name ring a bell (Californio jefe/foreman circa 1852-3)?
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2009, 05:07:04 pm »

To Wadd Watson Ellis,

Well it sounds like you put it all together quite nicely.  I've often wondered how one markets oneself as a docent or period correct actor at one of California's historical sites, e.g. Columbia or Sutter's Fort.  I've certainly got the rig and the clothing.  All I need now is the health.

Mad River Frank

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"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove any doubt." -- Abraham Lincoln

Mad River Frank
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2009, 08:43:53 pm »

Mad River Frank,

I think that with the downturn of the economy, EVERYONE values volunteers .... all I have talked to are looking ... for instance, I am sure that Sutter's Fort has had to lay off paid staff and must fill the ranks to keep things going with volunteers or close .... and even with health problems, they would value anyone who could work a couple of days a week ....

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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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sharps1859
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« Reply #103 on: December 21, 2009, 06:03:57 pm »

Might want to look for someone that started off in the Bear Flag Republic days for your persona.

I did the 150th anniversary of the flag raising in Sonoma back in 1996 wearing a pair of Colt Patersons in slim jim holsters, a silver mounted knife and a small rifleman's pouch that had an attached flask.  One of the best events I ever attended - and I came all the way from Virginia to be a part of it.

Have walked through old Sacramento many times and spent many hours in Sutter's Fort.

If somebody made replicas of "phoenix buttons" - I'd have these placed on your jacket as they would definitely be appropriate for an old time californian.

Doug Wicklund
The Californian #14701 in SASS
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2009, 06:44:35 pm »

Sharps,

I am not having much success breaking through the barrier between 'real' historians and their public. If I was given a name to work with, I think I know how to research and put 'flesh' on the history of a man ... but the few times I have attempted to contact someone who is extremely familiar with the period (especially pertaining to Sacramento in the early 1850s, I feel like the voice crying in the wilderness.

I have litterally had more help through this thread than I have getting face to face with someone.
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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kflach
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« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2009, 11:20:01 pm »

WaddWatsonEllis,

After you get all this together are you going to pull the documentation together to become a member of the "Originals Class?"
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2009, 11:37:29 pm »

Kflach,

No se ... what is this 'Originals Class'?  Does that let me shoot double crossdraw in Gunfighter?
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Dr. Bob
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« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2009, 01:45:23 am »

Nope!  It's an NCOWS class that shoots 1 revolver and one rifle.  Creates a persona [Life history] and documents all of his outfit to a year and his equipment to the year.  I am an Original.
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2009, 03:06:33 am »

Well, my 1980s Pietta 1851 is definitely going to be a holster queen ... If I do any black powder, I have a pair of Ruger Old Armys whose metallurgys I trust ....


But other than that, I would have a single black powder pistol, but do not have an 1852-3 rifle or shotgun. I don't think that I would be able to find a non-muzzleloading, non-single shot rifle or shotgun from the 1852-53 era.  My '73 Winchester and my '87 Winchester shotgun would definitely fit the bill ... they were just dreams in the inventor's id at the time I am working on ....

But it is a fun idea .... However, I don't think I belong to that club ....*S*
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2009, 12:37:01 pm »

Wadd;  Isn't your docent character close to an "original"?  I thought your date was 1860?  Just bump it a couple of years and a Henry or Spencer would do.
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2009, 01:07:57 pm »

Sir Charles,

Actually, I have slid 'back' to 1852-3 ... it seems that the Californios were not ready for the influx of 'Americanism' most spoke only Spanish, and were pretty much gone from the landscape by 1855.  Between lawyers with relaxed ethics, a Land Commission that demanded written documents (IN ENGLISH) showing proof of ownership, the Californios lost most of their land, power, and say in government very quickly.  Only a few of the very powerful men, Mariano Vallejo and Pio Pico come to mind, were left with anything at all ....

So again I am back to cap and ball days ... and I don't even think Colt had a revolving rifle yet in 1852-3... and I am just too lazy to muzzleload .... especially on a timed event.
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Dr. Bob
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« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2009, 01:15:51 pm »

The NCOWS time period is 1865 to 1899.

Colt made their first revolving rifle 1837-1838 according to Flayderman's Guide!
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Dr. Bob Butcher,
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2009, 07:10:46 pm »

Dr Bob,

This sounds interesting ... does anyone make a Cap and Ball Colt revolving rifle reproduction  ... and in a perfect world, .44 cal. ?
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #113 on: December 23, 2009, 01:06:21 pm »

Dixie still carries the Root Revolving Rifle, I think Palmetto made it, but they may be out of business.   
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WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #114 on: January 23, 2010, 04:42:54 pm »

As a way of bumping this page back to the mainstream, I thought I might give an update.

I now own matching Calaveras and a Vaquero Jacket, a kinda pumpkin colored 'river gambler' linen ruffled shirt in keeping with the Californio tradition, red silk charro style tie (again, applicable to 1851-52) and a dark red waist sash. Chuck Burrows has cut down an old blackpowder pistol belt, and is making me a pair of Botas de Alas (Californio/Mexican leather leggings they used like chaps). Josh Dabney is making me a 8 1/2" bladed Damascene Belduque that will tuck in the Botas Californio style. I have found an old use Pietta 1851 in .44 cal. (I know, the original 1851s were .36, but I just feel that shooting a .36 calliber is like firing a Beretta .380 at some one ... more apt to make them more angry than stop them). I was able to get an Oklahoma Leather 'Slim Jim' holster until I can afford to have a floral 'Winchester & Main' floral style Slim Jim and matching cartridge belt bag made for me .... I mean, I already have $1400 in a outfit for a non-paying docent position ... gotta stop, catch my breath and get every one paid before I order any more ....

As far as personas, I am still drawing up a blank ... thought I had the perfect one, but he was bushwacked (dead) a year before my period ... thought I might become Jared Sheldon', a yanqui who married into an old Mexican Family, converted to Catholicism and became a Mexican citizen in the 1830s ... I was thinking, 'Oh yeah, anglo Californio with a land grant (Now part of Elk Grove CA: for you locals, Sheldon Road is named after him) ... married into a old Californio Family ... perfect ... but then I found that he had put a dam on a local creek in accordance with an agreement with local miners.

Well the miners thought better about it ... and even tho' most did not even have legal permission to use the land, they killed Jared and several of his friends at the dam in 1851 ...


* Jared Sheldon.jpg (4.83 KB, 135x127 - viewed 414 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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Sir Charles deMouton-Black
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« Reply #115 on: January 23, 2010, 05:23:10 pm »

Maybe Jared had a brother; - Like Curley?
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2010, 05:36:59 pm »

Sir Charles,

Thanks; I'll check to see if he had any brothers ... I know that at least two of his closest friends were bushwacked at the same time by the same group of miners ...

I do think that there were some more anglos in the family who stuck around the area ... I'll have to access the Elk Grove
Historical Society ....
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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kflach
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« Reply #117 on: January 25, 2010, 10:26:58 am »

WaddWatsonEllis,

I just want to let you know how much I've enjoyed keeping with your progress. I'm going about this quite the opposite. It's interesting (and sometimes quite enlightening) to see what you've done and compare it with my own journey.

I'm still looking forward to that final picture you post, when you've got everything together and are wearing it!

Hang in there!
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WaddWatsonEllis
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Howdy, Pardner! Sacramento, Ca here ....


« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2010, 10:57:32 am »

Kflach,

I go in for a formal 'interview' on February 2nd ... but since I have met the woman and attended meetings, I think it is more of a formality ...

And I have two four hour classes starting the second week in February  .... so I will get to meet more new docents then.

It turns out I have to put $30.00 into some kind of insurance if I am to wear a firearm ... and the lady has the forms, so I will pick one up on the day of the interview ...

I still have a few things to do or pick up

I need to get some Mexican/non ASPCA approved spurs (i.e. the ones with the big cruel rowels)

I have a little (3 oz) powder flask that came with a tiny powder measure and machine style threads. I need to get a 45 gr measure and get the flask redrilled (fortunately larger) and rethreadded to fit the larger powder measure.

I will eventually get a cartridge bag that will hold the mini-flask, six extra balls in a leather bag, and a half dozen wads in another bag. I have a picture of the bag and the replacement holster below.

Still waiting for the February start date to begin work on the Belduque and Botas.

But the waiting is kinda making it more fun ... kinda *S*.

Well, I am helping the friend of a friend who is chairborne right now, and have to jump into the shower so that I can be there on time.

Best wishes to you all!


* 1849er-400 Purdy Gear.jpg (18.6 KB, 400x285 - viewed 266 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2010, 04:52:14 pm »

Dr Bob,

This sounds interesting ... does anyone make a Cap and Ball Colt revolving rifle reproduction  ... and in a perfect world, .44 cal. ?

Prolly equally as unreliable and DANGEROUS today as they were when they were originally made!

During the Civil War, when Berdan was forming up his U.S. Sharpshooters Regt. (USSS), he promised his men they'd be supplied with "Special" Sharps Breechloading (Paper Ctg.) Rifles (that were equipped with different Bayonets and Double Set Triggers).

When Sharps couldn't supply the rifles in time, Berdan sought to equip his men with Colt's Revolving Rifles instead, which he did.

While in camp and still training, Berdan's unit of experienced target shooters almost mutinied on him unless he supplied them with the promised Sharps rifles.

Berdan's men KNEW a good and workable rifle when they saw it.

Colt's Revolving Rifles weren't it!  Angry
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Grogan, SASS #3584

Frontiersman: The only category where you can play with your balls and shoot your wad while tweaking the nipples on a pair of 44s. -Canada Bill
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2010, 06:37:55 pm »

Grogan,

First, I agree wholeheartedly about the Berdan/Colt Rifle.

I have lived until my 60th birthday with all ten fingers, and intend to be buried with them in the same casket .. and connected to my hand!

That being said, the discussion was concerning 1851 in California .... and although the first Sharps were made in 1850 using paper cartridges, I doubt that there were any in California ... even with the few US Army troops there .... and much less with a Californio.

The Californios, from what I have read, disdained firearms, and were much more likely to have a sabre on their saddle rig then a scabbard and rifle. I am taking a liberty in a way to be wearing an 1851 Colt .... but I will have two Belduques on me ... a small 5 1/2" blade one at my waist for common work, and a 8 1/2" ish one tucked into my right Botas (legging). Historically knives were the weapons of choice, and a pistol would probably only be used against a gringo if the gringo was "heeled"...

My character that I am looking for would have ridden in from a ranchero, and left his horse and rig at the local livery... so any horse carried weapons will not be considerered ... just anything he might be carrying about town ...


* james-walker-californios.jpg (19.81 KB, 430x271 - viewed 449 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
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« Reply #121 on: January 26, 2010, 02:26:00 pm »

Grogan,

First, I agree wholeheartedly about the Berdan/Colt Rifle.

I have lived until my 60th birthday with all ten fingers, and intend to be buried with them in the same casket .. and connected to my hand!

That being said, the discussion was concerning 1851 in California .... and although the first Sharps were made in 1850 using paper cartridges, I doubt that there were any in California ... even with the few US Army troops there .... and much less with a Californio.

The Californios, from what I have read, disdained firearms, and were much more likely to have a sabre on their saddle rig then a scabbard and rifle. I am taking a liberty in a way to be wearing an 1851 Colt .... but I will have two Belduques on me ... a small 5 1/2" blade one at my waist for common work, and a 8 1/2" ish one tucked into my right Botas (legging). Historically knives were the weapons of choice, and a pistol would probably only be used against a gringo if the gringo was "heeled"...

My character that I am looking for would have ridden in from a ranchero, and left his horse and rig at the local livery... so any horse carried weapons will not be considerered ... just anything he might be carrying about town ...

Ellis,

I think there's NO Question that back then Knives were more reliable than Percussion firearms.

Cap 'n Ball Revolver's only advantage was range (and maybe if one chamber didn't fire you could always recock and try again?)

Of course if you read the Ordnance Dept.'s reports from back then (mid-1840s) you do come to appreciate what a revolutionary weapon Colt's (Walker) Revolvers were.

Gee, prior to the advent of these, mounted troops (Dragoons) were only equipped with Single Shot Smoothbore Muskets and their Saber.  Possibly they might have also carried a big Smoothbore Single Shot Pistol.

But their pistol's accuracy was very poor at anything but fairly close range, and again it was only ONE shot!

Imagine suddenly being issued a PAIR of Colt's Walker Revolvers?!!

Now you have your Saber, plus 12 shots, as powerful and (probably) more accurate than your Musket!

Oh, and the original tests include submerging the loaded revolver in a bucket of water for 1 hour and taking it out and it still fires all 6 shots!

(Obviously their revolvers, cylinders, caps & cones WEREN'T made in Italy?!!  Shocked)

Of course I don't know what the Californios were doing around Sutter's Fort back then, but I'm guessing that once the Anglos started showing up there were PLENTY of Colt's (mainly 1849 Pocket Pistols) around.

My 2 Cents
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Grogan, SASS #3584

Frontiersman: The only category where you can play with your balls and shoot your wad while tweaking the nipples on a pair of 44s. -Canada Bill
WaddWatsonEllis
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« Reply #122 on: January 26, 2010, 06:46:45 pm »

Grogan,

Again, I agree with all the information you have written of ... especially of the Yanquis. But the Californios attempted to trace their lineage back to Spain, and in their taste of personal weaponry it looks like they did the same ... they did not bother to learn English, and probably only carried firearms in self defense because they might have to deal with Yanqui.

But for problems among themselves, both the Belduque and sword lasted long into the 19th century. For instance, when the Mexicans routed our troops at the battle of Los Angeles, it was the Californio Lancers (horse drawn calvalry armed with Lances as primary weapons) that prevailed until US reinforcements were brought from New Mexico.

But the two cultures were mixing. Yanqui men married into Old Californio families and the cultures began to collide and collude. The persona I wish to portray is a person born or married into Mexican Citizenship and present for the three decades of often violent change from agrarian near feudal bucolic life to the hustle and bustle of new cities and new ideas ... someone able to see the worst and best of either the Californio or Yanqui outlooks ...

As such, in 1852 he would be in his fities or sixties, as am I.


* Anglo Californio.jpg (78.82 KB, 284x652 - viewed 349 times.)
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My moniker is my great grandfather's name. He served with the 2nd Florida Mounted Regiment in the Civil War. Afterward, he came home, packed his wife into a wagon, and was one of the first NorteAmericanos on the Frio River southwest of San Antonio ..... Kinda where present day Dilley is ...

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." John Wayne
NCOWS #3403
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
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« Reply #123 on: January 26, 2010, 07:28:50 pm »

The same photograph is on page 66 of PACKING IRON.  The caption states "Well armed for an overland trek, this gent from the late 1840's..." The image is courtesy of the Western Reserve Historical Society, Cleveland, Ohio.

Is that a Hall carbine?
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NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Grogan
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« Reply #124 on: January 26, 2010, 08:06:58 pm »

Grogan,

The persona I wish to portray is a person born or married into Mexican Citizenship

As such, in 1852 he would be in his fities or sixties, as am I.

Ellis,

Down there and in these days, that should be EASY!  Grin

I'd run an ad in Craigslist  Cheesy

(Just funnin ya Pard  Wink)

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Grogan, SASS #3584

Frontiersman: The only category where you can play with your balls and shoot your wad while tweaking the nipples on a pair of 44s. -Canada Bill
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