Shotguns in the old west

[Fiddler Green]

;DHeck, leaving aside lethality, dimes would make a darned expensive load.  If you only loaded five dimes into each shell you've used up one day's wage for the average cowboy.

Yea, that's always been my thinking, but, it was the legend so I posted it. 

In any event, it sure seems like shootguns got abused in the old west. Considering how expensive guns were (and still are!) they sure seemd to get dropped allot. I guess that's one of the few things the movies got right.

I wonder if Erp's shotgun is still in that creek?

Bruce

[Shotgun Franklin]

Every Solider, Marine or Cop I know who has used a shotgun considers it a tool. I don't know of any of'm who get attached to one or name it. You use it when you need it and set it aside when you don't.

[Bonesteel Badger]

How about Belle Starr. Shot from her horse by shotgun and shot again on the ground to 'be sure'.Doesn't say # of shots, but at least two were used. A single shot would have been reloaded. Anyone have a more indepth account of this or more info? Just tryn' to jog the memory. BB

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[Shotgun Franklin]

I've read that Belle Star was shot by her neighbor, or her son or who knows?
I've read that she was shot with a 12 ga or 10 ga?
Was anyevidence discovered? Not much from what I've read but I'm not much of an expert on Starr.
They did a TV movie about her years ago. Elizabeth Montgomery played Starr. Likey one of the worst casting mistakes in Hollywood history.

[Ozark Tracker]

I can remember going as a kid to see Belle's grave site,  above the Dam on Lake Eufaula,  right there at Porum,  used to be Youngers Bend on the Canadian River back before the dam.

durin the years that Belle was in Oklahoma,  the Muskogee Phoneix was the newspaper that covered that part of the Indian Territory,  at one time they reprinted articiles about Belle Starr, that had been printed through the years in the paper,   it was really interestin. 

[Bonesteel Badger]

Found one...Great Stagecoach Robberies of the Old West by R. Michael Wilson page 113. A nighttime stage robbery erupts into gun battle. Guard fires 3 times from shotgun,didn't find make or guage. Last shot fired when S.G. dropped due to guard's bullet  shattered wrist. Deffinate shotgun reload then on to pistol.   Back to the search...BB

[Fiddler Green]

Found one...Great Stagecoach Robberies of the Old West by R. Michael Wilson page 113. A nighttime stage robbery erupts into gun battle. Guard fires 3 times from shotgun,didn't find make or guage. Last shot fired when S.G. dropped due to guard's bullet  shattered wrist. Deffinate shotgun reload then on to pistol.   Back to the search...BB

Took long enough to find a reload, huh? Then again, maybe it was a pump and they didn't reload it. When did this take place?

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

Every Solider, Marine or Cop I know who has used a shotgun considers it a tool. I don't know of any of'm who get attached to one or name it. You use it when you need it and set it aside when you don't.

Huh?

I don't think we were talking about naming shotguns here. Did I miss that?

Bruce

[Bonesteel Badger]

Robbery took place on the Bodie stage August 1880, stage driver handed down his double barrel to the shooter,Tovey. BB

[Shotgun Franklin]

I don't think we were talking about naming shotguns here. Did I miss that?

The point was that while a shotgun is a great weapon and can end a fight they some how don't have the appeal or glamour or personal attraction that a handgun or rifle can have. The first revolver I used in a shooting has my name engraved on it and is now nickel plated. The first shotgun I used has been gone in a trade years ago. The revolver has an attraction but the shotgun was just a tool.

[Fiddler Green]

The point was that while a shotgun is a great weapon and can end a fight they some how don't have the appeal or glamour or personal attraction that a handgun or rifle can have. The first revolver I used in a shooting has my name engraved on it and is now nickel plated. The first shotgun I used has been gone in a trade years ago. The revolver has an attraction but the shotgun was just a tool.

There all tools.

Bruce

[Gun Creek Phil]

A shotgun - in and of itself - is a powerful deterrent, and wise folks don't go up against them.

That's why they were favorites of Express Guards and Railroad Guards, as well as Lawmen.

In truth, there weren't all that many 'shootouts'  in the 'real' Old West - but they dominate the 'reel' Old West and the 'paperback' version, as well

The shotgun, is for me, a real icon of the Old West.I'm happy to have found a nice hammered Belgian Shotgun (12/65 gauge) with shortened barrels.The barrels have been cut by a gunsmith and he is in nice shooting condition.
It looks nice with my 1860 Army.
Pics to come in another post 

[Roscoe Coles]

I have not read through all the posts but the question of reloading in the old west got me thinking.  In something like the killing of Wild Bill or Jessie James it was one shot and done. 

Other fights involved a few more shots, Dallas Stoudenmire's "four dead in five seconds" in 1881 or Commodore Perry Owens' fight at Holbrook in 1887 (where he shot 4 at close range with a Winchester 1873 in less than a minute) or even the OK Corral fight come to mind.  In these cases quite a few shots were fired but things were generally over before there was a need to reload.  In the one example I have mentioned where its know than a gun was fired dry, Doc Holiday's shot gun, the fight was still underway so Doc transitioned from the empty shotgun to a loaded revolver. 

There are cases where gunfights went on for hours or even days.  For example When Nate Champion and Nick Ray were surrounded and killed during the Johnson County War in 1892 the shooting went on for hours before the cabin was fired.  The siege at Alex McSween's house in the Lincoln County war lasted five days before the house was fired.  In these cases all combatants must have reloaded.  Participants in battles with Indians are also know to have fired very large numbers of rounds, the Wagon Box Fight of 1867 (which lasted 5 hours) and the battle of Adobe Walls in 1874 (which lasted 3 days) would be examples, though there are many others.

The conclusion to be drawn from these examples is that reloading, or not reloading a shotgun, rifle or revolver was not causally related to the nature of the old west, it was determined by the nature of the fight, just as it is today. 

As far as reloading shotguns goes, while I know of no specific examples where it was done, I know that express companies provided spare ammunition to shotgun guards in case they needed to reload. There is a photograph in one of R.L. Wilson's books of a wooden block holding shotgun and revolver ammunition provided to guards by Wells Fargo.   Even if reloads never happened, having spare ammunition on hand must have provided a psychological boost to express guards as no one feels good about heading into a fight short of ammo.

[Delmonico]

Logic says if yer gun is empty and yer still alive most likely if you have ammo yer gonna reload it.  Beyond that the point is moot since not every gunfight was documented with pages of what happened. 

CAS shooting is just a game, and if the rules of the shoot says at this stage you reload the shotgun, then you do or don't play.  Pretty simple for most to see.

[Professor Honeyfuggler]

In the one example I have mentioned where its know than a gun was fired dry, Doc Holiday's shot gun, the fight was still underway so Doc transitioned from the empty shotgun to a loaded revolver. 

In the DVD version of "Tombstone," he didn't make that transition quite as quickly as you might think.   I had seen the film in the theater originallly, and didn't catch the mistake then, but maybe the DVD was recut. In any case, Doc clearly shoots THREE shots from that double barreled shotgun before reaching for his pistol. I couldn't believe they made that mistake, so I replayed it, several times. Yep, sure enough, he fires off the first round, then the second, hittting I-don't-remember-who, then the camera angle switches to behind the bad guy, and you see Doc fire the shotgun and the bad guy go flying.

Just an editing error, I'm guessing, or maybe the editor thought it was more dramatic to extend the scene a half a second of instant replay and thought nobody would notice that Doc took that second shot twice before dropping the shotgun.
 

[Sinister Colt Cloot]

It was not three shots from Doc. The second and third shots are the same shot just seen from different angles.

[St. George]

Let's try to stay on track.

Using the 'John Ford Reference Library' for any sort of Old West fact isn't going to to be reliable.

The question involves 'actual' use during the era - 'not' artistic license created in some director's fertile imagination.

Those discussions belong in the 'Books and Movies' forum.

Scouts Out!

[texcl]

I'm a "lawman" and I''ll tell you when I take a long arm into a situation I never bring extra shells, you never have time and whenyour weapon runs dry you transition, dump the dead weight. Some things never change.