Load for fireforming .348 into 45-75

[Roscoe Coles]

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I am working on forming 100 rounds of .348 into 45-75.  I am waiting for some neck expander dies from CH but I will be at the fire forming stage in about 5 days.  I have been looking over all the posts on this process that I can find but I am still confused.  I have four powders on hand, Black, 4198, Tight Group and Red Dot.  Its a bit tough to get powder at this point so it would be best if I can use one of these.  I have a bunch of 320 grain bullets on hand.  Can someone with experience doing this give me detailed information on how to go about it?  Which powder and how much to use, if I need a different powder or bullet etc.

Thanks

Roscoe

[Joe Lansing]

    A friend of mine used to fire form 30-06 cases up to 9.3mm by simply placing a .375 lead ball in the chamber, followed by a primed 30-06 case(annealed neck) about a third full of black powder and fire it. Out would come a nice fire formed case. You may be able to apply this approach to your need. Trim the case first and get some .457-8 balls.

                                                                                J.L.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I've tried a number of powders & bullets, mostly from Hobie's site.  I use only black powder in my NWMP carbine, so I finally decided to just load 'em up with my regular bullet.  It won't take a full charge, but get enough in to compress in the normal fashion with FFFg under your bullet.  I think about 65 grains will do it.  After that load your service load.  Mine takes 75 gr under the Gould hollow point or the special run of Lyman 457193 moulds.

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/search/label/45-75

[Grizzly Adams]

I am working on forming 100 rounds of .348 into 45-75.  I am waiting for some neck expander dies from CH but I will be at the fire forming stage in about 5 days.  I have been looking over all the posts on this process that I can find but I am still confused.  I have four powders on hand, Black, 4198, Tight Group and Red Dot.  Its a bit tough to get powder at this point so it would be best if I can use one of these.  I have a bunch of 320 grain bullets on hand.  Can someone with experience doing this give me detailed information on how to go about it?  Which powder and how much to use, if I need a different powder or bullet etc.

Thanks

Roscoe

Hi, Roscoe. 

I like to fireform the 45-75 with 24.5 grains of 5744.  Since you don't have that, I would use a full case of BP with moderate - 1/16th of an inch compression.

Somewhere, I have some data for 4198.  Let me see what I can turn up for you.

[larryo_1]

Fire-forming the 348 brass:

I can't help but put in my two-bits worth here.  Away back when, I said how I did it.  What I did was first anneal the new cases and then cut off about 0.23" from the case mouth.  Then I put in 16 grains of Bullseye or 20 grains of Titegroup and then fill the case full of Cornmeal, tap it down to settle the stuff and then press on a wad of Beeswax.  then I just step out the door of the shop and go BANG!  That is how I fire-form my brass.  I do it this way with 348 cases and 50 Alaskan.  I have never lost a case doing it this way.  I see no reason that this won't work with 40-60,45-60 or, in my case 45-75 cases.  I used to do it this way when I would fire-form 32-40 cases to 38-55 cases too but that was a long time ago when 38-55 ammo was hard to get and one had to impro-vize!

[Roscoe Coles]

The expander plugs came today along with CH Die's graphite lube, which they said was better than sizing wax.

 First things first, don't use this graphite lube. You are supposed to dip the cases in it depositing a film in the neck of the shell then run it into the expander.  After crushing 7 cases I gave up on that and used regular old RCBS case lube applied with a Q-tip.  Worked like a champ and I had no more problems crushing cases.  The graphite is also quite messy.  Luckily it only cost a couple of dollars.

After re annealing the cases I ran them through the sizer die and I am ready to make fire forming loads.  I looked around for a load for 4198 and they do exist, varying between 28 and 30 grains.  Can I use this load along with the Gould 230 grain bullet for fire forming or should I stick with black?  I have quite a lot of 4198 and Black is harder to get.

[Grizzly Adams]

The expander plugs came today along with CH Die's graphite lube, which they said was better than sizing wax.

 First things first, don't use this graphite lube. You are supposed to dip the cases in it depositing a film in the neck of the shell then run it into the expander.  After crushing 7 cases I gave up on that and used regular old RCBS case lube applied with a Q-tip.  Worked like a champ and I had no more problems crushing cases.  The graphite is also quite messy.  Luckily it only cost a couple of dollars.

After re annealing the cases I ran them through the sizer die and I am ready to make fire forming loads.  I looked around for a load for 4198 and they do exist, varying between 28 and 30 grains.  Can I use this load along with the Gould 230 grain bullet for fire forming or should I stick with black?  I have quite a lot of 4198 and Black is harder to get.

Since you are using the 230 Gould, you should be in the comfort zone with 28 grains of 4198.

Let me add this:  An early listed 45-75  load with IMR 4198 was 24 grains with a 350 grain bullet.  It was intended for use in originals, and is pretty conservative.  I have used 26 grains in the 45-60 with a 300 grain bullet - averages about 1350 fps in the 45-60.  Again, pretty mild load.  For fire forming,  I would think that 25 grains with a 350 grain bullet (standard weight for the 45-75.) would do a nice job for you. Once you get the cases formed then you can use that as a starting load and work up using a chrono to monitor.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The GOULD mould was initially made in three versions.  Only the middle one, at about 330 grains, stood the test of time.

What have we here, finger trouble, or one of the rare early moulds?

[Roscoe Coles]

No, thats a brain fart.  Its the 330 grain.  Hobie's page says that he has used 24 grains of 4198 and a 300 grain bullet for a fire forming load with success.  I loaded 90 rounds with the 330 grain bullet and 24 grains of 4198.  We will see how it works tomorrow.  I will be going out first thing in the morning.

As I said I have a bunch of 4198, 6 lbs, on hand and it would be nice to use it for a smokeless load.  I use 4198 for my 45-70 load but up to this point I have only used black for 45-75.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Good Shooting!  I love my Centennial.

[Roscoe Coles]

Thanks, I love my Centennial as well.  I already had 120 rounds for it before I started this project.   I hate being stuck in California like I am.  But hopefully we won't be here more than a year.  Back at the ranch I have a steel target hanging up on the cliff at about 175 yards out, which I can shoot from my porch.   Here its a big pain in the butt to get out to the range. 

[Hobie]

Where is "here" for you now Roscoe? 

BTW, I used 24 gr. IMR SR4759 for my fireforming load with JACKETED 300 gr. bullets.     HOWEVER, the idea that you can use any safe load that fits in the unformed case is correct.  I think it will actually do a better job than trying anything else.  I think BP better forms the case as well.  One must NOT have air between BP and bullet base. 

[john boy]

Roscoe, pour 65grs of FFg into the non fire formed case and crimp a 457 round ball on top.  The groove is 456. The brass gets pregnant fast 

[Roscoe Coles]

Well, I went out to the range with the 24 grains of 4198 under the 330 bullet and the best I can say is that it was OK .  Some of the rounds filled out nicely while others filled out at the shoulder but not behind, leaving the case with an odd coke bottle look to them.  None of the cases split.   I have to say that they shot pretty well and were a pleasure to shoot. 

I dug some of the bullets out of the bank and they showed a pretty serious amount of expansion.  Of the five I found, one was a perfect mushroom and the others were to one extent or another blown apart.  But, I was shooting into a dirt bank which had some stones in it so its about what you would expect from a lead hollow point.  Still you can see that this would do some serious damage to thin skinned game.

I am going to anneal them again and throw then in the tumbler and try a slightly hotter load for the next go round. 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I wouldn't worry if the "pregnant look" doesn't go right back to the web the first time. It often takes a second shot to arrive at the desired shape.  They are almost there, and you can load them that way with your service load.  .348 brass is tough stough! (Oh Darn, there is my Engrish again.)

[Roscoe Coles]

Where is "here" for you now Roscoe? 

I'm stuck in El Centro, CA at the moment, 5 miles north of the Mexican border.  70 feet below sea level, 50 percent humidity and half a degree cooler than the hinges of hell.  I still have the ranch in Nevada and get up there regularly but I have to be here for a while.